Monday, November 14, 2005

Looks like God's doing his "smiting" thang again...

Posted by Mickey Z on 11/14 at 06:53 AM
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  1. How about a songlist, too?  Did you open with Revolution?

    I bet you were on “fire.”

    Posted by JOS from mi orgullo, Puerto Rico  on  11/14  at  07:48 AM

  2. The devotion to religion is more than an appearance. Wars aren´t about military objectives (if they were, for example, in World War II the Strategic Bombing Survey might have helped Allied planes hit Axis munitions houses instead of avoiding them) but about staging blood rituals. Couple days ago Michael posted some facinating snippets of a Robert Fisk talk about the parallels between the 1917 Iraqi invasion and the current one - the ritualistic behaviour in enacting out these violent pieces of theatre shows they´re quite strict when it comes to observing.

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  09:58 AM

  3. Morning, Big Country. I’m playing serious catch-up today so I promise more details later or tomorrow. For now: yes, I opened with “Revolution,” Michele and I sang “Opposites Attract” (Paula Abdul), and, while in my dress, I took part in a duet of “Summer Nights” (from <i>Grease</i).

    More soon…

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  09:59 AM

  4. Sorry, Owen. We were typing at the same time.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  10:03 AM

  5. That´s a fun set list you got there.

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  10:08 AM

  6. A can-can dress.  You.  I am speechless.

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  10:36 AM

  7. Owen, based on the evidence, war and killing and death ARE the religion, the one true religion, of mankind world-wide.

    Once the pretty buildings and nifty poetry are all ripped away, what’s “left”?  Death and dying, this world is but an illusion and the next is so much better that we can’t wait to help you get there, so here’s a weapon now go kill that guy over there.

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  10:40 AM

  8. RMJ, yesterday you said this:
    Maybe Ward Churchill is right or maybe I should just give up and learn how to knit socks or something.
    Ward Churchill is right.  As to you knitting socks, well...make sure they’re cotoon, but as a life-pursuit I can think of none less likely for one who is incandescent with an outraged sense of right and wrong.  You may not think what you’re doing makes a difference because the same things just keep happening.  You are wrong.  Bad things will alwyas happen, and it’s up to good people to scream and yell about them.  Will good people win?  No.  But they will change the course of the evil that exists in mankind’s basic biology, or in makind’s soul for the spiritually inclined.

    It’s the ebst we can hope for.  As Keir said yesterday, “Would you kill a baby for a million dollars?  A billion?  There’s no excuse.” Agreed, there is no excuse.  But there is always a reason, and that’s what it’s up to outraged good people to shine the light of their burning fury on: the reasons have to change before the results do.

    Please don’t despair, RMJ, your example shines a harsh and inescapable light on an ugly set of reasons.  Wihtout you and others like you, the reasons will only stay in the “dark” and metastasize.

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  10:53 AM

  9. Hi JOS and Mickey and Owen and Mudgester!

    Mickey - remember, it’s not the dress, it’s the accessories! 
    Mudge - do you really think it’s in our biology?  Why? 
    Owen, I’d sure like to read that post from Michael.  I assume you’re talking about a post here, and not an official tub thumping… Remember what day it was?  I guess I’ll have to browse the recent archives…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  11:18 AM

  10. Rosemarie -
    I second Mudge’s ovation. 
    Your efforts are surely having a positive effect, somewhere, somehow, though perhaps they’ll not be obvious…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  11:21 AM

  11. Oh man! Please say you got enough Can Can kodak moments to make a new GIF with! smile

    Posted by Luna_C from A clean slate  on  11/14  at  11:26 AM

  12. Hey Joe,
    I think it’s in our biology because our entire ancestral line, chimps to bonobos to us, is a killing line.  The males of these animals’ social groups go out and hunt down for purposes of murder males from other social groups.  The behavior doesn’t come from nowhere, and since we share 99% of our DNA with these folks, I can but assume the behavior is genetically linked.  I suppose that, somewhere in the world, there is a scientist busily isolating the “murder gene” so we can use it against human killers we want to punsih somehow.

    My species, my species....

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  11:26 AM

  13. joe… here is that stuff

    some points from a talk robert fisk did recently....

    WW1 - british army invaded iraq to destroy the ottoman empire (which it did). in 1917 they reached baghdad. the general issued a proclamation was addressed to the people of the muhaf azat the governorate of baghdad “PROCLAMATION - from general angus maude commander ni chief british forces Iraq....we come here, not as conquerors, but as liberators, to free you from generations of tyranny”

    Sound familiar?

    fisk went on....

    “an insurgency broke out against british rule in handari, near abu ghraib. the first british officer to die was called leachman. i covered the death of te first american soldier by a roadside bomb, i went to the scene. it was handari and it was one hundred metres from the spot where leachman was killed in 1920. in revenge, the british army took its artillery and fired into a town called fallujah, destroying much of it of course. we also surrounded najaf and demanded the surrender of a shi’ite clergyman called badr rather than sadr. its like fingerprint parallel histories..”

    he continued

    “ i found in london, in the public record office a british intelligence document from baghdad to the war office claiming that terrorists were making their way into iraq from syria. i also found lloyd george (the prime minister) saying ‘if we leave iraq there will be a.....(have a guess)

    “napoleon when he carried out the french expediion issued a proclamation to the people of cairo saying we have come to rescue you from the pashrs(??) who don’t give you free speech”

    and on and on it goes.

    Posted by michael from scotland  on  11/14  at  12:14 PM

  14. You may well be right, Mudge.  I hope not, but there’s no doubt that human history is chock full of almost inconceivable barbarity - and chimps really do go off on war parties…
    Still, ya gotta wonder:  We, the ordinary folk, have always been serfs, and little more, and it’s an unnatural condition in which to live.  But the chimps… tough one.  I recall watching a documentary in which they did exactly what you describe.  I wonder if they lived in some African “park?” That is to ask:  Are there any vast, untouched jungles left in Africa?  Areas which have not been circumscribed and officially defined as “wild?” If not, then perhaps we’re observing chimps in apparently natural, yet actually unnatural settings… settings which preclude chimps from wandering as far and wide as they might if the jungles were everywhere and always available.  Perhaps we’re seeing some variation on the phenomenon observed among rats and mice when those sadistic experimenters keep too many of them in one small area, and they become somewhat mad…
    Donno - I’m just looking for some sense that we’re more than we might at first appear to be…
    Thanks, Mudge.

    And, thank you, Michael.
    That is really eerie stuff, man.
    Reminds me of films about serial killers, where they’re compelled by some inner psychosis, to repeat various rituals each time they capture and kill someone… I suppose the similarity is quite appropriate, eh?

    Thanks again, both…

    “ill”

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  12:22 PM

  15. Hello everyone. Just stealing a few minutes to join the “heavy” conversation.

    It could be viewed both ways. Human history is a catalog of atrocities, for sure. But day in and day out, humans are far more often compassionate and peaceful. Every minute of every day, humans are holding a door open, tossing a coin or two in that homeless man’s tattered cup, wiping away a tear from a loved one’s eye, offering to help a stranger up the stairs with a heavy package, sharing their money, their food, their homes, their time. These supposedly mundane, minor episodes don’t get reported on CNN. But should one of those humans shoot another human to get money to buy Nikes, it’s headlines. Why? Because it’s the exception. Bush, Clinton, Hussein, Osama, Blair, etc. are not representive of humanity. They are what we get when we accept a system based on material accumulation.

    This isn’t to say we adopt a pollyanna perspective. Rather, it’s a reminder that perception is reality.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  01:24 PM

  16. Posted by tm from nile of genago  on  11/14  at  01:25 PM

  17. TM: I almost used that image on today’s post but when I shrunk it, the caption was unreadable. Thanks for adding it in here.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  01:26 PM

  18. I like Mickey’s take...you know who is the biggest fan of the theory that human beings are inherently flawed?  Religion.  All religions as far as I am concerned.  But where would the Church be without a world full of sinners?

    Posted by JOS from mi orgullo, Puerto Rico  on  11/14  at  01:50 PM

  19. Hi JOS & MICKEY (Thought you should get caps, too, Mickey.  Hell, it’s yur site!)

    Thanks you guys.  JOS, don’t know if you were raised Catholic, but in THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, it has been determined that we were all “born in sin!” As soon as we pop out of the womb, we’re f$%#$%’d… If a newborn dies before being baptised, it goes to “limbo.” Not a terrible place, mind you… but not Heaven.

    So, from the moment of our birth, we’re in desperate need of “Elite Intervention!”
    (What an odd coincidence, eh?  - that the church would have the same sort of stranglehold on our lives as government...)

    Mickey, I’ve been thinking similarly about our “nature.” And, it seems to me that things “work,” more or less well, because of who we are and in spite of governments and bureaucracies and “leaders” and religions, and not at all because of them…
    Does this make “sense?”

    (PS - I’ve never spelled “bureaucracies” correctly, without looking it up - ever… Even the word is nasty...)

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  02:18 PM

  20. JOE, my father was a priest.  Is that Catholic enough for ya?

    Posted by JOS from mi orgullo, Puerto Rico  on  11/14  at  02:25 PM

  21. That’ll do it, JOS.  Whew!
    So, there are at least 3 former Catholics here.
    Let’s hear it for guilt!  Hip Hip…

    TM - great cartoon, thanks.

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  02:30 PM

  22. make that 4 former catholics.

    in a catholic education you do one more exam than anyone else...guilt.

    its all YOUR fault

    Posted by michael from scotland  on  11/14  at  02:55 PM

  23. Hi everyone...Mickey, were you wearing pearls and high heels?
    Mudge, That is the nicest thing that anyone ever said to me. I will print it out and read it whenever I get discouraged. Thanks too, Joe.
    About the source of mankind’s violence, is it really biology? I do believe that biology plays a big role in just about everything. Sometimes I think that maybe there is just an excess of testosterone on the planet,(sorry guys). Then again, I remember reading about cultures that were completely free of all violence. Cultures that did not even have words for “anger” or violent acts in their language.///////
    Joe, my cousin was the Catholic priest that was portrayed in the movie “The Miracle of the Bells”. Frank Sinatra played the part of Father Anthony, my cousin...which was a true story. The statues in the church really DID turn and move during a funeral. The official explanation that eventually was revealed was that the “miracle” was really caused by the settling of the mined earth. This all happened in the Pennsylvania coal mine region in the small town of Glen Lyon.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  03:08 PM

  24. Sorry,if I´m a bit off-topic here but found some quotes by Edward Abbey and wonder what books by him is worth reading?

    “Great art is never perfect; perfect art is never great.”

    “Those who dream of the joys of living in a space colony should live in a space colony.”

    “The purpose of love, sex, and marriage is the production and raising of children. But look about you: Most people have no business having children. They are unqualified, either genetically or culturally or both, to reproduce such sorry specimens as themselves. Of all our privileges, the license to breed is the one most grossly abused.”

    “Jack Kerouac, like a sick refrigerator, worked too hard at keeping cool and died on his mama’s lap from alcohol and infantilism.”

    “There is no force more potent in the modern world than stupidity fueled by greed.”

    “The rich are not very nice. That’s why they’re rich.”

    “Liberty cannot be guaranteed by law. Nor by any thing else except the resolution of free citizens to defend their liberties.”

    “Music is a savage art, a measured madness.”

    “A drink a day keeps the shrink away.”

    “ “Rock” is the music of slaves. Of adolescents pursuing the illusion of freedom and protest while the steel chains of technology bind them ever tighter. “

    “Daddy, the garbage man is here! Tell him we don’t need any.”

    “Though I’ve lived in the rural West most of my life, I never once fell in love with a horse. Not once. Neither end.”

    “The best cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy.”

    “A true libertarian supports free enterprise, opposes big business; supports local self-government, opposes the nation-state; supports the National Rifle Association, opposes the Pentagon.”

    “The one thing worse than a knee-pad Tory is a chickenshit liberal. The type that can not say “shit” even when his mouth is full of it.”

    “Whenever I read Time or Newsweek or such magazines, I wash my hands afterward. But how to wash off the small but odious stain such reading leaves on the mind?”

    “Society is like a stew. If you don’t keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top.”
    - Edward Abbey.

    Posted by Old Glen from   on  11/14  at  03:14 PM

  25. I do not take the pessimistic view that violence, degredation, and exploitation are unquestionable components of The Human Condition. That shit ain’t my human condition. I agree with Mickey but I would take it one step further: every day I walk down the street and this great mix of people from all over the world who live in my neighborhood--Dutch and Surinamese, Moraccans and Turks, Chinese and Indonesians, Americans and British, Spanish, Egyptians, Israelis and so on--all manage to not rip each other’s throats out. People are not only regularly doing kindnesses, as Mickey points out, but they are also regularly solving problems and conflicts without resorting to violence.

    Mudge you did say “war and killing and death ARE the religion, the one true religion, of mankind world-wide”, which I can almost agree with, but with one caveat: religion is learned. If you don’t learn this horrible religion, you won’t embrace violence. Perhaps.

    And as long as we’re going in for religion, how about this line from Rousseau: “The world is my country; my religion is to do good.”

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  03:21 PM

  26. Michael, I think you’re right:  It IS my fault…

    Glen - some great quotes, in there, thanks.

    And Rosemarie & Keir - thank you both for your perspectives.  I’m convinced we’re not who / what modern civilization seems to say we are.  I’m interested in who we are, before the great hypnosis, the terrible disease of master and slave… I think we’re on to something; I hope we’re on to something.

    Rosemarie, I have a cousin who is a priest, too.  All of my relatives, without exception, had a picture of him in his church garb, hung up in a place of honor, somewhere in their homes.  He’s in his mid sixties, now; he’s worth over a million dollars, owns two houses, and has been living with a male “friend” for almost 20 years.
    God bless `im.

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  03:40 PM

  27. Maybe some of you here are familiar with the writer Derrick Jensen. Some of the discussion yesterday and today reminds me of a passage from Jensen’s book A Language Older Than Words...

    “There can be no real peace when living with someone who has already declared war, no peace but capitulation. And even that, as we see around us, doesn’t lead to further peace but to further degradation and exploitation. We’re responsible not only for what we do, but also for what is in our power to stop. Before we can speak of peace, we have to speak honestly of the war already going on, and we have to speak honestly of stopping, by any and all means possible, those who have declared war on the world, and on all of us. Those who destroy won’t stop because we live peacefully, and they won’t stop because we ask nicely. There is one and only one language they understand, and everyone here knows what it is. Yet we don’t speak of it openly.”

    There is no sense in answering violence with violence, and certainly no sense in threatening violence against the State with its tanks and guns and trained professional killers. But I think there is a secret weapon we have, which is to threaten fearlessness. I’ve heard that wolves don’t chase deer unless the deer run. Whaddy’all think?

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  04:30 PM

  28. i was there and have the proof - i say everyone has to ante up for the Kause before the can can photos hit the net!

    catpha is “moment” (and it WAS)

    -n

    Posted by can can cam from   on  11/14  at  04:43 PM

  29. Great quotes - great post, Mickey!  I know, I know, I am repeating myself, but some things just need to be said over and over again.  I especially liked the Aristotle quote - proves once more that there is really nothing new under the sun.
    And hi, all of you MZ’ers!  Hope your Monday afternoons/early Tuesday mornings are good - here in Daylesford, Australia it has been wet and stormy but the rain has stopped at least.

    Posted by Helga Fremlin from Daylesford, Australia  on  11/14  at  04:46 PM

  30. And thanks for cheering me up, Mickey, re human history and for the Robert Fisk history lesson, Michael!
    LOVE the cartoon, TM.

    Posted by Helga Fremlin from Daylesford, Australia  on  11/14  at  04:50 PM

  31. One last thing ..  make that 5 (FIVE) former Catholics - I was brought up a Catholic but gave up on the RCC long ago!

    Posted by Helga Fremlin from Daylesford, Australia  on  11/14  at  04:55 PM

  32. Dunno if I was one of the original three ex-Cats, but I am one...rebelled against going to religious school when I was 9, refused to get out of bed until I was enrolled in public schools, all because the spelling word was “Nebuchednezzar” one day.  Made First Communion, quit the whole shootin’ match, never looked back.

    From you, RMJ: “Then again, I remember reading about cultures that were completely free of all violence.” I keep hearing about this.  I can find no direct observation of it, just reports of information given to an anthropoloogist asking questions.  I think it was a goof, myownself.

    And, of course, you’re welcome...I never flatter, I merely report what I see.

    MZ and Keir: Yeup, the world’s got a lot of kindness in it, and no way are all people everywhere rotten stinkin’ bastards.  There were Germans who hid and aided Jews who excaped from the death camps.  Good exists everywhere.  So does bad.  I very strongly question whether evil is learned and not simply innate.  As one who believes in the tenets of karma, I think it’s innate on a spiritual level.  Some people just *are bad.* There is no hope for rehabilitation of these people, they are what they are like oranges are what they are.  Grape juice does not come from oranges, so don’t blame the orange for not giving one grape juice.  I’d say that the problem of violence is insoluable.  (I typed “insoluble” first, but that just means “can’t be dissolved in ordinary liquids.” Not sure of this spelling and too lazy to look it up.)

    So, while I don’t think the problem admits of solution, I think I don’t want to live in a world where we don’t try our goddamnedest to solve it, and I like Keir’s suggestions, so let’s have a bash, Keir!  I’m right there beind you being as non-violent as I can.

    Old Glen: I love Edward Abbey’s novel, The Fool’s Progress: An Honest Novel. I also enjoyed Fire on the Mountain quite a bit.  A little bit maudlin, maybe, but guy-stories often are.

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  05:52 PM

  33. Hey gang. Great idea, Nancy. Maybe I should extort some money. You wanna see me in a dress...ante up for the cause.

    Old Glen: I’m stealing one of those Abbey quotes for tomorrow.

    Keir: I did not know that wolves don’t chase deer unless the deer run. I second Mudge’s motion. Count me in.

    Is everyone counting me as an ex-Cat? I’ve got 12 years of Catholic schooling. That officially “makes” me a martyr, I think.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  05:59 PM

  34. Mudge, I work with kids ages 12-24 months. Some of them cry and all of them shit their pants, but none of them are just bad. Not even the ones who hit and bite and deposit copious amounts of baby snot on my clothes. Badness comes later, after they learn it at home and church and school. But whatever. I don’t think the problem is one of “good” and “bad” (or “evil"). I think it’s killing people because you believe it’s the right thing to do, or not. Lucky me in The Hague without having to make the choice---until The Hague Invasion Act (which calls for a US invasion of The Hague in the event an American is brought to trial here for war crimes) is enforced---it does however fall to people like me (and the indomitable Expendables) to shout our bloody lungs out against the violence and be living examples of something better.

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  06:12 PM

  35. Keir, you never met me as a child (impossible, since you’re younger than I am), but I was the inspiration for the Chucky evil doll.  Red hair, green eyes, small and malevolent...that was me!  Per my “mother” anyway.  Now, of course, I am large and malevolent, according to the Christer sisters and intrinsically evil because male to the lesbian sisters and a lotta fun per the sister who’s over the whole judgment thang.

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/14  at  06:25 PM

  36. Whether good and evil are inherent in the human, I don’t know. But one topic that has fascinated me is how the military can take an average kid, the kid next door, and in a few short weeks transform him/her into a killer. The military is genius at removing the taboo against killing. That is something that most parents of enlistees never think about. I have finally figured out how that transformation from good kid next door to killer is made. There is very little written about this.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  06:54 PM

  37. RMJ, you might wanna go see Jarhead. It covers some of the ground you’re talking about.

    Keir, this is the line of the day: “It does however fall to people like me (and the indomitable Expendables) to shout our bloody lungs out against the violence and be living examples of something better.”

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  06:59 PM

  38. Mickey, pleasure to be of service.

    Rosemarie (and all), here’s a truly great article from the March ‘05 Harper’s on what kids go through when they enlist and what they go through to escape: http://www.harpers.org/AWOLInAmerica.html

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  07:09 PM

  39. anyone read This Way For the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen by Tadeusz Borowski? http://tinyurl.com/926jl

    title story: http://tinyurl.com/9zk73

    Borowski’s biography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Borowski

    Posted by tm from nile of genago  on  11/14  at  07:39 PM

  40. To:  We Who Are Guilty -
    You, too, Helga?  You too, Mudge?
    And Mickey - yes, you were one of the original 3… but now, methinks, you deserve some sort of war-wounds medal - perhaps a Purple Heart. 
    Bless us all, every one!

    Great conversation.  Wonderful.  And Keir, I agree with Mickey - thanks for your posts, today… Thanks everyone for thinking about this, out loud.

    Rosemarie, you were in the service.  Me, too.  Boot camp is certainly a brain-washing event.  Tear `em down and put `em back together with a whole new consciousness.  You learn to do what you’re told to do.  Period.  You learn that, instead of being sent to the high-school “office,” to see the principal, you can be trucked off to Federal Prison, Leavenworth, for relatively minor infractions.  You learn that “they’ve got you,” and they can do almost anything they want with you…
    It’s a disturbing experience, to put it mildly. 
    And, of course, it doesn’t end with boot camp…
    Smedley Butler said something like this:  “...like everyone in military service, I never experienced a single original thought.  It wasn’t until I stepped out of it, that I began to see what had happened to me...”

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  07:43 PM

  41. Joe, Wouldn’t it be great if we could find a way to give every potential recruit a copy of “War is a Racket”. One of the things about my training that I have been thinking a lot about lately, is how much of the training was designed to brainwash the troops into hating civilians. At the time, I did not realize why that was part of the training.
    Mickey, thanks for the “Jarhead” tip.
    Keir, the article that you link to in Harper’s is one of the best I’ve seen. Thanks.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  08:02 PM

  42. “Great art is never perfect; perfect art is never great.”

    I like this Abbey quote, reminds me of I heard Beck talk about his new album he made himself play all the instruments which was why a lot of them sounded a little off. He would usually record a take over and over till he got it perfect but invariably went back to the original cause “that was the one that had the life”.

    Joe that Smedley Butler book is fantastic. For anyone who hasn´t read it, here for you: http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
    also I shall be appropriating some of it for the Nano so you´ll know. Here´s wise rat Burroughs again:
    “Words, colours, light, sounds, stone, bronze belong to the living artist. They belong to anyone who can use them. Loot the Louvre!”

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  08:21 PM

  43. Have you heard of this fellow? Stephen Eagle Funk, a 20 year old Marine conscientious objector:

    “The ads make the armed forces look so cool—‘Call this number and we’ll send you a free pair of boxer shorts’—and a lot of kids don’t realize what’s involved...every day in combat training you had to yell out ‘Kill! Kill!’ and we would get into trouble if you didn’t shout it out, so often I would just mouth it so I didn’t get into trouble.” The recruits were also encouraged to hurt each other during hand-to-hand combat training. “I couldn’t do that so they would pair me up with someone who was very violent or aggressive,” he said.

    Funk said many recruits were envious of those who were being sent to the Gulf, The Guardian says. “They would say things like, ‘Kill a raghead for me—I’m so jealous.’”

    As a Catholic who attended mass most Sundays during training, he eventually decided to take his concerns to the chaplain. The chaplain told him, ‘It’s a lot easier if you just give in and don’t question authority.’ “He quoted the Bible at me and said, ‘Jesus says to carry a sword,’” Funk said. “But I don’t think Jesus was a violent man—in fact, the opposite—and I don’t think God takes sides in war.... Everyone told me it was futile to try to get out,” he said.

    At shooting practice, although he scored well, the instructor told him he had an attitude problem: “I was a little pissed off and I said, ‘I think killing people is wrong.’ That was the crystallizing moment because I had never said it out loud before. It was such a relief.”

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  08:28 PM

  44. You guys just reminded me of something I wrote over 2 years ago, re: Butler’s book, anti-war veterans day, etc.:
    http://tinyurl.com/bo859

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  08:33 PM

  45. Rosemarie, it’s not a bad idea. Thousands of copies of good-quality, well-written, easily understood and attractively printed anti-imperialist texts should be made available to military people and their families, and potentials as well. Surely there must be some rich folks out there to underwrite such a project (George Soros’ number has gone missing from my rolodex; anyone else have it handy) and some intelligent, e x p e n d a b l e people who could select the works, and some savvy graphic designers who could make it attractive to guys trained to shout “Kill” everyday etc. In fact, I can imagine a whole wave of counter-recruiting actions at high schools, colleges, poor inner city recruitment offices, etc.

    What are some good candidates for texts? “War is a Racket” obviously. How about “Civil Disobedience”? C’mon, who’s got one?

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  08:50 PM

  46. Wow. Some good comments today. Keir especially.
    OK, from the top! To me life is about one thing (apologies to the late Jack Palance) and that one thing is which side are you on? Which door will you walk through in the next life? And you will choose the one you have devoted your life to.
    So, Rosemarie, whether you are effective in changing the evil around you (us) is secondary to what you are making of yourself.  And this applies to us all.
    Evil will make a big noise to make us afraid so that we will betray ourselves and then confront us with our now established weakness to “prove” to us that we are weak and dispicable and should join them wholeheartedly because the other (good) side will reject us and besides we obviously don’t belong there. Both of these propositions are lies, of course.
    This is brainwashing as is “bootcamp” as is TV advertising because it is constantly telling you that you are less than adequate without some bullshit product.
    Once someone has declared war on you, you do have to confront it but you will almost certainly be more effective if you use non-violent means because to respond with violence usually ends up you fight your oppponent with their weapon of choice which is straight out dumb.  And secondly, power to be effective in the long term must be seen as legitimate (legal and appropriate) by the citizenry because without the active and passive support of the citizenry, no authority can have power.  The use of violence by power/authority against non-violent resistance ultimately erodes that general co-operation.
    I read an interesting explanation of the “turn the other cheek” story.  To be struck on your right cheek by someone using their right hand (check it out), you have to receive a backhander. This is the insult of the mighty against the lowly. Now, if you then turn your other cheek, presenting your left cheek, your assailant now has to strike you with their fist.  The symbolism is that you show you will not accept the assailants authority and invite them to exceed it by striking you with his fist.  This reduces him to at least your level and erodes his authority in the eyes of the assembled observers. You have defeated him without violence. Yet if you had responded with your own violence, then all you have done is legitimate his authority, his initial backhander and the subsequent escalation in violence against your good self and, above all, become what you are against. I think Jesus knew what he was talking about and that the right wing fundo christians haven’t a clue.
    Apologies for the long post.

    Posted by Jim from   on  11/14  at  08:55 PM

  47. Mickey, I had not read that essay of yours before, Thanks. The Debs quote must have been the basis for the Tom Joad talk to his mother in Grapes of Wrath. That is one of my favorite movie speeches.
    Owen, I think that Stephen Funk was one of the first CO’s of this war.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  08:58 PM

  48. Keir, could have a menagerie of novelists. There are huge slabs of Pynchon´s Gravity´s Rainbow could be thrown in for example, I´ll have a root through my shelves over the next couple days.

    “The mass nature of wartime death is useful in many ways. It serves as spectacle, as diversion from the real movements of the War. It provides raw material to be recorded into History, so that children may be taught History as a sequence of violence, battle after battle, and be more prepared for the adult world. Best of all, mass death’s a stimulus to just ordinary folks, little fellows, to try ‘n’ grab a piece of that Pie while they’re still here to gobble it up. The true war is a celebration of markets. Organic markets, carefully styled “black” by the professionals.”

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  09:02 PM

  49. Rosemarie, he was the first I found out.

    While looking for the above quote I found this:

    “Consider this: the US Marines use an adapted version of Doom as a training simulation. The notion that first person shooter game maps the experience of combat is part of a convergence of media simulation and military logistics.”

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  11/14  at  09:06 PM

  50. Jim, Yes what you say reminds me of the old quote, “We do not protest to change others. We protest so that others will not change us.”
    Keir, I had an idea for a project a while ago to have a contest offering a reward to anyone who could find a significant error of fact (not a typo) in Zinn’s History book. I even checked out the idea with Zinn himself. The project never got off the ground because I didn’t have time to raise the funds for the reward money. That would have been a way to get people to read Zinn’s book but there are also many other books that could be used to educate and inform the public...Bill Blum’s, Mickey’s, etc.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  09:10 PM

  51. Owen, the use of electronic “games” to teach killing in the military is really troubling when you think of how many kids are playing those electronic games at a time when their brains are still in the development stage.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  11/14  at  09:18 PM

  52. Owen that’s some scary shit. And didn’t the Pentagon meet with crappy political thriller writer Tom Clancey post 9/11 to get some advice?

    Rosemarie anything that gets people to read this stuff is good. But now that I think about it, I’m surprised it wasn’t attempted earlier: the Anti-Recruitment Handbook. Seriously, if it looks cool it might make enough waves. Granted, Mickey’s books (and those of others) are basically that, but what about a book full of excerpts specifically printed to keep people from enlisting?

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/14  at  09:19 PM

  53. I agree with you guys about War Is A Racket, it’s an incredible piece of work.  All the more because of so very many quotable passages.  He’s pretty direct - not much “fluff.” I’ve been thinking that a short biography of Butler - the “man’s man,” followed by some of his most compelling quotes, would be a powerful “hand-out” or “leave-behind” page for when I go out in the world.  He’s a guy who’s hard to just dismiss as a coward or a “Leftie,” or just a damned “pie in the sky” fool.  His work is just made to order for people who are trying to communicate an anti-war message…

    Mickey, I liked your CounterPunch article.  And, that quote from Debs, I think, is one of the most awesome statements ever made, anywhere, by anyone. 

    Owen - I’d not heard of Mr. Eagle Funk… he’s right on the money.  It’s funny, isn’t it, that one doesn’t need to study Marx or Anarchy or any great Leftist thinkers, in order to arrive at the truth.  One simply has to look around and think for a while about what one sees…

    Keir - great quote from Jensen, thanks.  I just discovered him, recently, in a book by John Zerzan.  I ordered “The Culture of Make Believe” a few days ago.  I think he’s a weirdo, like us…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  09:23 PM

  54. You know, when Rosemarie first used the phrase “Inform the Troops,” I immediately began contemplating a book with that as its title. Now, the idea of it being an “Anti-Recruitment Handbook” has my mind spinning. Brilliant. “Clearly,” this deserves some serious thought.

    In the meantime, something about Derrick Jensen that once appeared here: http://tinyurl.com/aacbe

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  09:29 PM

  55. Sorry, I guess I didn’t refresh the page often enough… Jim, very nice post.  It’s impossible to disagree with your perspective, I think… Everything, everything, comes back to the person who stares out at us from the mirror each day.  Gandhi said something like:  “You, yourself, must become the revolution you seek.”

    I’m not sure we need a book, though, of course, it would be cool.  Lots of info can be distributed, right in “our” little worlds, each day, if we’re willing to find creative ways to do so.  Moreover, it might be conveyed to people who would never, ever buy an anti-war type book, thus expanding the “circle” just a little bit…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  09:32 PM

  56. Great quotes, Mickey.
    Reminds me of the scene in Crocodile Dundee, where he takes his first walk in Manhattan, during a weekday, and tries to say hello to everyone he passes… He speaks to a guy in a car and says:  “Hi, Mick Dundee.  Just got in.  Probably see you around...”
    It was a portrait of a “sane” man, confronting “civilization” for the first time…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  09:37 PM

  57. I love that moment, Joe. I’m a lifetime New Yorker, “thus” it’s something that really stood out to me.

    Maybe we could do a pamphlet of some sort?

    I’ll check back in tomorrow to see what everyone else thinks.

    G’Night…

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/14  at  10:10 PM

  58. G’night, Mickey Z… Thanks again, for this place.
    Hey, everyone, I have zero objections to a book.  I was just thinking that, should it not be written, we’ve lots of other options available.
    I often think that perhaps I pass by a few dozen potentially “open minds,” on my way to buy a book about how to “open minds...” It’s easy to miss “here and now,” in favor of a future “abstraction.” As I get older, “here and now” is becomming ever more important, somehow…

    Posted by joe from Oregon  on  11/14  at  10:23 PM

  59. INFORM THE TROOPS: Fifty Facts About War “They” Don’t Want You to Know.

    Quotes from vets of as many American wars as research can find, all emphasizing the futility of battle, inanity of command structures, humility before destructive power, etc etc etc.

    INFORM THE TROOPS: Essays by the Victors Who Barely Surived the Victory, a Gulf War Reader

    Health and sanity-impaired vets give it to the reader with both barrels.  No holds barred, these are the first-person stories of the ignored victims of victory...the victors.

    INFORM THE TROOPS: A Novel of Renewal

    What does it take to bring the mightiest power ever known by humankind to its knees?  One angry grandma.

    When Rosamonde Jarree, a retired professor of ethics at Tooposhfor U, joins an impromptu citizens’ demonstration against an unjust war, the fur begins to fly.  Mme Jarree’s many years of training as an ethicist and teaching the precepts of honor and dignity to wealthy future captains of industry and admirals of the ship of state collide with her inability to justify death and totrure performed in her name as a citizen of the USA.  Her wordless protest, standing in an attitude of prayer at the gates of Tooposhfor U, lands her in court...then jail...the the Supreme Court...but it isn’t until this angry citizen files suit in the Hague that things get interesting!

    (Warning: explicit scenes of passion and belief may offend some consuers)

    I could go on, but I’m waaaaay tired and I need some sleep.  I do hope my “manner” hasn’t offended…
    xoxo

    Posted by Mudge from Dear, dead Austin  on  11/15  at  02:18 AM

  60. Mudge, sounds great. Do go on!
    A few facts about depleted uranium should do a lot to illuminate prospective recruits. Is it 300,000 Gulf War vets on disability pensions? I know that over 11,000 have died since returning from the Gulf.
    Every one in Iraq is going to have their life shortened to some extent because of DU.  The size of htis war crime is mind boggling. Because you actually breath in the radio active material puts it in a whole different catagory. You are exposed to radiation 24/7 for the rest of your (short) life!

    Capchs word “red” an’ I’m aseein’ it!

    Posted by Jim from   on  11/15  at  03:25 AM

  61. It was a about three in the morning at my last post--had to get a few hours sleep. But this is great: YES, YES, YES.

    INFORM THE TROOPS: an Anti-Recruitment Handbook (and all those other things Mudge said it will be), edited by the Expendables.

    This is what I dreamed this morning: some kind of distribution plan that for every book sold, two (or four--why not?) would be given free to young people in danger of enlistment. Production costs to be covered by any well-funded anti-war group that’s not full of shit.

    Joe, this is in addition to all that person-to-person work you talk about. I think for a seventeen or eighteen year old, being handed something cool, for free, has an impact. For that reason alone why not slip a dvd inside the freebies with Rage Against the Machine videos or something…

    Anyway. Yeah, that Debs quote (often appearing in Vonnegut works) is the whole story in one gulp. Beautiful. Nice article, Mickey.

    Jensen is a weirdo like us, Joe, a very nice, very principled, totally uncompromising writer weirdo whose book (Language...) turned me on to not walking in lock-step with everybody around me down the road to voluntary global annihilation. Or something like that. Though I find some of his ideas a bit over the top for my taste (re: the feelings of non-living things) I owe him a great debt for waking me up.

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  11/15  at  03:44 AM

  62. I pitched an idea very similar to this to a few publishers not so long ago and have had nary a nibble (still waiting for a few responses). If I get turned down, I could make it a weekly feature here: Anti-Recruitment Day. That might spread across the Web...to other sites and blogs.

    Right now, I’m recovering from all the fundraiser work, I have a talk to give this Friday, I am fighting a losing battle to write a novel by November, etc. etc. etc. So, again, if my proposal is rejected by publishers, I’d be willing to re-visit this idea as a collaboration in the near future.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  11/15  at  06:55 AM

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