Friday, February 24, 2006

Thank Buddha, it's Friday (here's a bunch of stuff that didn't fit in here all week)

Posted by Mickey Z on 02/24 at 07:02 AM

  1. I avoid books with “ism” in the title. When you can put a name to what you believe, you´ve wrapped your brain in barbwire.

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  02/24  at  07:31 AM

  2. Good morning Owen.....
    Mickey, you have another winner here today with the link about neurotoxins. I will send my pregnant daughter here today. Thimerosal is a big issue that we discuss all the time. Doctors put a lot of pressure on patients to get vaccines which could be harmful. There are now reports that the government and insurance companies will also be doing that. The pharmaceutical companies are very powerful lobbyists. More on this later.
    JOS...your photo posted last night is amazing. Thanks. I hope everyone checks last night’s comments to see it. It leaves me with renewed commitment. Back to the issue of non-violence. Recently Amelopsis said something that really clicked in my brain. She said that I did not pick the fight that I am having with the government. It was their call. Going along with that line of reasoning, I think that sometimes you have to fight by the other guy’s rules. Sad but true? A defender is not the same as an aggressor.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  09:09 AM

  3. morning all,

    i have read the manifesto and also had garbled and mangled bits of it said in speeches at rallies and things so it gets a bit boring after a while

    Posted by michael from scotland  on  02/24  at  09:17 AM

  4. Good morning Mickey, Owen, Rosemarie, Michael, & every Expendable lurking or yet to visit,

    I’ve never read the manifesto or any part thereof, I’m sure that by now I must have read a number of excerpts at some time or another.

    That neurotoxins link is downright enraging. I get almost too frustrated for words at how we’ve knowingly polluted in so many ways for so many years and now ‘oh geez, your kids’ a dimwit for these innumerable combination of reasons - here take a pill’! And all the effluent we create in our sewage contains all the excesses and it just feeds back around all over again.

    RMJ - your daughter should also read some of Kennedy’s writings on thimerosal and the like. He’s waged quite an intelligent crusade in regards to immunisations and educating parents about the various effects.  I think no parent should be pressured by dr.’s unless those doctors educate themselves and their patients properly - and not only with pharma. company provided information.

    Well, there’s my morning rant for now.

    The only technology whales ever needed is that which nature provides - and it’s oh so much wiser than the technologies upon which we’ve created a dependancy.

    ps: I did look at what I’d missed yesterday - JOS’s posted picture was quite moving. RMJ your mention of appropriate action is the real predicament but I do think civilians in this age can be justified in violent defense. I’m just no longer certain that any of it begets results...the military industrial machine is one which seems destined to continue to grow until it eats its own tail.

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  09:55 AM

  5. Hello Expendables. It’s such a pleasure to interact with this crew. The mere mention of Marx or the suggestion that vaccines might not be what they’re cracked up to be or the mocking use of the phrase “home of the brave”...any of these could provoke a flame war all across the Web. In our little corner, well...it’s just different.

    Now, where the hell is Joe?

    I do agree 100% that, in theory, a defender is not the same as an
    aggressor. However, these days, words have a nasty habit of changing definition on a case-by-case basis. I’m sure the Bushies would describe the bombing, invasion, and occupation of Iraq as “defensive” and Iran’s nuclear program as “aggressive.” Whoever controls the media gets to set such definitions.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  11:10 AM

  6. Speaking of media control: http://tinyurl.com/h4j6z

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  11:13 AM

  7. Mickey I agree completely with your opinion in #5.  I think it’s demonstrative of an open mind and the lack of a greed based agenda; it’s the reason I enjoy coming here, even when time doesn’t allow me as much time for making conversation as I might like.

    Attemting similar conversation elsewhere can be, well, tiring.

    The Home of the Brave also has a very odd problem of self proclaimed christians protesting at funerals of the military war dead shouting down the mourners, maligning the dead and toting signs saying ‘god hates you’

    If anyone’s interested I’ll try and find a link.

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  11:29 AM

  8. Indeed - Where Is Joe??

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  11:30 AM

  9. “It came to me that reform should begin at home, and since that day I have not had time to remake the world.”
    --Will Durant, historian (1885-1981)

    Capital isn’t really a pleasure read (1/3 of the way through is all the farther I’ve been able to slog) the way Candide is, but it’s crucially important and so it gets misread, misquoted and misused by all manner of folks.  It’s in the inevitable-behavior column.  Look what the disrespectful louts do to their own, self-defined “holy scripture.”

    Good Friday, all Expendables, and another voice in the chorus asking after Joe...also Hawk...Old Glen from Sweden, come back!...Hope from Denmark; Youngfox could visit more often, but our Empress would tell us if he was ill or otherwise not able to function.

    Posted by Mudge from Austin  on  02/24  at  12:01 PM

  10. Good day to you Mudge,

    It’s completely off topic, but such is the working of my little brain at times.  ‘Durant’>> ‘Durante’ (as in Jimmy) >> my younger cat (whose profile as a kitten was much like Jimmy’s)!  Nonsensical stream of conciousness.

    Thanks for asking about Youngfox, he’s well and intact & still attached to his lurking ways. The Cool Observer posts and conversation often are the seeds of much conversation for us. His latest post has some very interesting links about many things, but in particular one piece about the Nation of Zombies that is being raised by our irresponsible media & govt. policies.

    I noticed a comment from Hawk on his own blog that he’s preparing for a study trip to Peru!

    Hope you’re well too - weather not wreaking havoc with the bones & blood of late?

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  12:19 PM

  11. How do, Empress...glad Youngfox is at least not ignoring us.  Hawk’s off to Peru?  Lucky sod!  I’ve made several memorable trips to Peru, a place I love...it’s California, only sincere.  One day I’ll finish my novel Capacocha.

    A gout attack has commenced, but a fairly mild one; the weather’s not doing much to help or hinder, the last cold frint of winter’s come and gone.

    Next Friday we get to discuss Mowat, so I won’t start the discussion early except to say that this book is...it made me...nope, can’t think of a way around it, gotta wait until the 3rd.  Drat.  The Cool Observer site is like sex, not “school”: finishing early is NOT a good thing.

    Posted by Mudge from Austin  on  02/24  at  12:52 PM

  12. RMJ, from last night: “...the quotes supported violent revolution. I sort of disagree but the point that I tried to make (my comment was lost, I was using someone else’s computer) was that there is a big difference between protecting the powerless and waging an illegal war.”

    The quotes, IMHO, support violence; I distinguish between self-defense and violence, rather earlier than most.  F/ex, police are NOT the moral or actual equivalents of foreign soldiers invading a country not theirs.  Aggrieved American citizens do NOT have the privilege of unopposed armed insurrection.  Do I like the way this government runs the place?  No, not at all.  Is armed rebellion the answer?  Only if it’s used to effect positive change, which pretty much has never happened in the 20th-21st centuries.

    But I am, as noted before, highly opinionated and quite curnudgeonly.

    Posted by Mudge from Austin  on  02/24  at  01:05 PM

  13. Yeah, um, hey-- maybe I’m just distracted, letting the workplace interfere with my CO websurfing, but just what the heck is all this talk of advocating armed rebellion here? Sounds entertaining, but what exactly are you talking about? Just theorizing about how nice it would be if we could practically enforce our opininons, or is one of you gonna get a gun and do something crazy? Pardon if I’ve lost track of stuff here, good luck either way…

    Posted by James from work  on  02/24  at  01:23 PM

  14. Quick stop-in before I head out for a bit:

    Let me first assure the FBI that no one here is planning an armed insurrection.

    Secondly, allow me to direct your attention to the new GIF of me at the top of the main page. Thanks, Luna.

    See everyone later…

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  01:48 PM

  15. As to whether violent defense is justified I can´t answer because I don´t believe in a moral order of any sort, but I do think it is deeply unhelpful when the architects of these wars feed on human fear, grief and violence, be it from Americans killing Iraqis or Iraqis killing Iraqis or Belgians killing Congolese or the way our media is structured to wring as much stress as possible from populations - all this fear is like a fine old cognac to these folk.

    Posted by Owen from Barcelona  on  02/24  at  01:58 PM

  16. all this fear is like a fine old cognac to these folk.
    Very well stated, Owen

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  02:02 PM

  17. I like the new gif - ‘Hide & Seek Mickey’

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  02:03 PM

  18. As for arming myself - I marvel at the unnecessary firepower of today’s water guns!

    Posted by Amelopsis from CAnada  on  02/24  at  02:05 PM

  19. I definitely am a member of the ‘Mickey Z. Fan Club’, Mickey!  And, no, I haven’t read the entire communist manifesto either but I have read excerpts.

    And thanks, Buddha, it’s Saturday morning at 6:58 am in Daylesford, Australia and a cool change is going to come through.

    May all you expendables have a very good weekend in various parts of the world!

    Posted by Helga Fremlin from Daylesford, Australia  on  02/24  at  02:58 PM

  20. Hi All...Amelopsis, I do have a weapon that I keep loaded. Up here the squirrels are mighty intent on breaking and entering. In the battle between man and beast, the little critters always win. After my first experience of hearing the patter of many little feet upstairs, I took action. I keep my water gun loaded at all times. (Mickey, it’s not cruelty. They look and laugh when they are hit.)

    Owen, I see your point but to me a moral order is just one aspect of living an examined life. I live by the philosophy that it is more important to keep my morals in order than it is to keep my sock drawer in order.

    Mudge, I think that I agree with you except that I think that the MX quotes support defense not violence. Armed rebellion might not be the answer but unarmed rebellion has not been working very well lately. I have always advocated non-violent global boycotts until the USA closes all bases and secret prisons on foreign soil. I don’t think that that will ever happen though. I am sad that you are not feeling too good. I hope that soon you will be better.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  03:04 PM

  21. Oh, and I LOVE the new GIF of you, Mickey!  Thanks, Luna.

    Posted by Helga Fremlin from Daylesford, Australia  on  02/24  at  03:17 PM

  22. advance apologies for the digression…

    for various reasons i have been saying the same thing all day and seem to be in a bit of a rut with it but i am enjoying myself, its nothing new but it is giving me a kick at the mo to say it… so i have to say again…

    HENRY FORD WAS A FASCIST

    Posted by michael from scotland  on  02/24  at  04:14 PM

  23. I hope everyone is online later as I only have a minute to say hello.  Thanks for noticing the pic, RMJ, you started a great converation there that needs further comment.  later.

    Posted by JOS from Chicago  on  02/24  at  04:30 PM

  24. Well, I have read the Manifesto. Over 70 times, to be precise. You see, my New Year’s resolution in 2004 was to read the Manifesto at least once a week, so I now know it essentially by heart. This might seem a bit fanatical, but I assure you, I am not some dogmatic fool who believes everything Marx did and wrote was like the word of god or something. I do, however, think it useful to have such an intimate knowledge of certain texts, it can really help to grasp the essence of what the author was trying to say.
    Anyway, I think that that Zinn quote you put up is rather bad, the Manifesto is actually one of Marx’s least important works. Zinn is right that Volume 1 of Capital is excellent, but his other stuff is by no means a “waste of time”.The Grundrisse, The German Ideology, the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844, these are of great importance, as are a number of other of Marx’s works.
    Anyhow, this is just me, but I am extremely into “abstact theorizing” and I think think that a working knowledge of Marx or at least the basic ideas he put forth is essential for an understanding of this world.

    Posted by Quinlan Vos from Portland, OR  on  02/24  at  04:49 PM

  25. Mickey #5 says, “...Whoever controls the media gets to set such definitions...” Maybe not. The definitions are not changed by using the words for the purpose of propagandizing.  The USA has used the term “The Defense Dept.” for years but we all know that it is really the Dept of Offense.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  05:09 PM

  26. Wasn’t Quinlan Vos a villain in the old Star Trek series? Anyway, armed insurrection at my place tonight, vegan buffet included. But give me a few hours to take a nap first, it’s been a long day at the office.

    Posted by James from work  on  02/24  at  05:14 PM

  27. Hello again, everyone.

    Quinlan: I appreciate your points and I’m glad you chimed in today. I posted the Marx item in the hope we’d hear from a wide range of viewpoints. I’ve read much of the Manifesto in excerpt form. I owe it to myself to try it from beginning to end.

    RMJ #25: Sadly, I don’t believe many Americans contemplate the use of the word “defense” in Defense Dept. or the fact it was know as the Dept. of War until just after WWII.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  05:15 PM

  28. Mickey #27...I agree. That’s why it helps to use the precise word. Everyone here always does. The media is a big part of the problem. It was the media that propagandized about the slaughtered civilians by referring to them as “collateral damage” because during the Pentagon briefings that was the term that the government used.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  05:30 PM

  29. Great post here today Mickey.

    I think theoretical analyses are not only useful but crucial. Indeed, it’s hard to make any sense of the world without some sort of lens to look through. But huge problems arise when we subscribe to one particular abstract theory. So there is a lot of wasted time when we partake in arguments that revolve around which theory is more ‘correct’. Each one has the potential to shed light on an issue/problem/event that might have otherwise been overlooked.

    Posted by Fiona from San Diego  on  02/24  at  05:49 PM

  30. I read some excerpts from the Communisst Manifesto for a class called “Modern European Intellectual History” I took during a semester abroad in London in ‘97. Not big on theory myself, although I dig Mike Albert’s Parecon ideas (as if y’all didn’t know).

    On violence, I don’t know if somebody already mentioned this, but one of the biggest problems is what it turns oneself into: someone who is violent--even at the defense of others. That’s the best reason for being a pacifist. Maybe that’s cowardly, I dunno. I tend to agree with Rosemarie, but I fear unlocking the door to violence in myself is not something I would want to mess around with.

    Michael, Henry Ford the fascist plays a minor role in a novel by Philip Roth, The Plot Against America which I read last fall. Great reading.

    Posted by Keir from The Hague  on  02/24  at  06:08 PM

  31. RE:#26:Quinlan Vos is actually a character from Star Wars, a Jedi master who appears briefly in that terrible Episode 1 and is mentioned briefly in the slightly less terrible Episode 3. He is a major character in the comic books.

    Posted by Quinlan Vos from Portland, OR  on  02/24  at  06:12 PM

  32. Was he one of the ones that gets cut down by the kiwis near the end? I have read some of the Tales of the Jedi comics, but none of the ones around ep3. Yup, the prequels are utterly dreadful, the digitally fucked around with originals are worse. Not that the originals are ‘art’ or anything, but the revised ‘Return of the Jedi’ ending is absolute gash.

    I have read the Commie manifesto, but I can’t honestly say I remember it that well. I do enjoy the line that Noam often trots out, that x% of americans think “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” is in the constitution.

    Even the very limited violence I’ve experienced has always been in the hands of f’wits with little sense of discrimination (or, in the other sense of that word, too much sense of discrimination). I feel its something too much tossed around in the abstract - if we can accept that we might not know how we would feel in the event of being attacked, how can we pretend to know what it would do to us to kill or maim another? That I guess is the trump card of the veteran movements, they know that shit, but I can’t say its a hand I’d want. As long as I have a choice I won’t, and maybe thats the problem in a nutshell, I don’t know.

    Its an argument I dislike in my gut, but - if it weren’t for the Iraqi insurgency, whatever they’re doing to whomever they’re doing it - we (our troops on our behalf) would be in Iran by now, who knows where else.

    Posted by mewshkin from   on  02/24  at  06:50 PM

  33. Real nice mix of voices, topics, opinions and ideas here today. I’m loving it. Thanks, everyone.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  07:22 PM

  34. Hi all, back for a dip-in before going out on a date (!).

    RMJ, words can be used to advocate equal and opposite viewpoints unless stated so carefully as to be lawyerly, and even then the determined can make the damn things dance.  It’s one reason I enjoy quote-mining so much.

    Michael, Ford was worse than a fascist.  He was a conservative.

    Hope everyone has a lovely eventide, smooching each and all.

    Posted by Mudge from Austin  on  02/24  at  07:43 PM

  35. Have fun, Mudge. We’ll be expecting a full report on Storytelling Saturday.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  07:45 PM

  36. Just saw this on THEUPSIDEDOWNWORLD site. It shows the harm that the World Bank and US corporations do to people all around the world. When collecting rain water becomes illegal, it is time to do something!!!!!!!!!
    “...The Bolivian government granted Bechtel-subsidiary “Aguas del Tunari” a 40-year contract to run Cochabamba’s water system in 1999. The contract imposed fines for home rainwater collection and increased rates by 100 percent. The increase meant that many families were spending one-fifth of their monthly incomes on potable water. Others simply went without....”

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  07:48 PM

  37. RMJ: My friend reviewed a book about the Bolivian water wars here.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  07:51 PM

  38. Mickey, thanks for the link. That looks like a great book. I knew about the Water Wars but it struck a nerve in me to read that it was illegal to collect rainwater. I did not know that. It is the same principle as the prosecution of farmers who have a Monsanto seed blown on to their farms. ...Back to the violence-nonviolence debate. I think that it is violent to prosecute people for collecting rain water.

    Posted by RMJ from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts  on  02/24  at  08:15 PM

  39. Rosemarie, I agree, denying people access to things they need is violence; a harm deliberately done is violence.
    Oh, and I also agree with Helga, Mr Z - your new gif is sweet. You “appear” to be watching out for vice-presidents with guns before emerging.
    (and thats mew, not mewshkin, my diminutive idiot twin)

    Posted by mew from not london, hooray!  on  02/24  at  08:36 PM

  40. You nailed it, Mew. I rose cautiously from behind that rock. Cheney’s got a gun…

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  09:04 PM

  41. I’ll see you all tomorrow. Remember yer stories…

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/24  at  10:21 PM

  42. Read the Communist Manifesto, although it’s been quite a number of years ago (was part of the reading list for a political philosophy class I took as an undergrad).

    Posted by James from Oklahoma  on  02/25  at  03:15 AM

  43. MZ,

    I like the new photos (you know, the ones of yourself). I liked the old ones of you playing ball, and speaking at the podium, although I have to admit seeing you in a dress was a little disturbing. ;)

    Yes, I have actually read the Communist Manifesto.

    And when I did, I observed that most of the ten planks seem to be accepted doctrine in the U.S., beginning with the graduated income tax and moving right on down through the list.

    I could be wrong. I haven’t read it recently, but that’s my recollection of my immediate response to having read it.

    Posted by Jeremy from Taiwan  on  02/25  at  04:12 AM

  44. BTW, I agree with your observation about this forum being a very intelligent and civil one, where disagreement is permissible between participants without accusations or insults becoming normal, acceptable, or desirable practice, as seems to be the standard in most forums (I participate/have participated in a few).

    Cheers, Expendables!

    Posted by Jeremy from Taiwan  on  02/25  at  04:22 AM

  45. On the subject of prisoner abuse, I’ve compiled a document collection some might be interested in purusing here:

    http://tinyurl.com/pdy2n

    It hasn’t been updated in a while. But the documents included reveal clearly that the abuses that have occurred at Abu Ghraib and eleswhere are not the work of “a few bad apples”, but the result of policies implemented at the highest levels of our government.

    I regret that I don’t have the Mowat book. I look forward to everyone’s thoughts anyhow, and hope to participate in future book readings.

    Posted by Jeremy from Taiwan  on  02/25  at  04:51 AM

  46. Thank, Jeremy. I’ll re-post your link in the main post soon.

    Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria  on  02/25  at  07:20 AM

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