Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Sunday, October 16, 2005
Got a question? Ask Gandhi...
good morning, Mickey...it is way to early to be awake on a Sunday, but I guess I am becoming an early riser now.
Great post, today. Perhaps you have already read it, but the best book I’ve seen on Gandhi and non-violence is this one by Thomas Merton:
There goes that Churchill again...he really was a horrible bastard, wasn’t he?
Well, I’m off to yoga. Yes, yoga...at 9:30am...on a Sunday. And guess what...I’m excited about it. Next thing I’ll work on is this vegan thing.
Have a good one.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 10/16 at 07:41 AMnot a vegan or a veggie but sometimes wonder. read a lot about gandhi and some of it does make you wonder as well. i have an enormous admiration for him but some of it is a bit dodgy. one of his kids was ill and the doc was recommending milk and gandhi delayed and delayed and made the illness ten times worse and the kid nearly died in the end. i can’t remember the outcome but i think he capitualted eventually. as for the ahimsa thing - all of the goals are admirable but in at least 4 of them (IMSA) i am fairly certain that they are not exclusive to veganism.
i don’t agree with a lot of this but its an interesting perspective, especially as it was written at the time rather than form looking thru history books… http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/work/essays/ghandi.html
yes - churchill was a horrible bastard but over here we are brought up to believe in this mythical figure and not unforunately, a fat bastard with a strange hat.some quick churchill facts....
1. first person to authorise deliberate gas bombing of civilians. this was in Iraq in the early 20’s - then called mesopotamia. another british gift to a grateful world!
2. called in troops on striking workers and suffragettes and more than once gave them the order to attack.
3. the clips of speeches of his that we often hear were not in fact spoken by him but by an actor. churchill made the speeches in parliament which at that time had no sound recording facilities. the transcripts were then taken and read by an actor in the BBC studios.
4. when he said “we shall fight in the air” and all that - what did he mean ‘we’. i for one did not hear of cigars being rationed at ten downing street.
5. he hid all his family from national service.
6. he was responsible for serious military f*ck-ups at gallipoli in WW1 and in italy in WW2. after a while both the british and US war planners were making every effort to keep him out of the way.Posted by michael on from scotland 10/16 at 07:55 AMI guess I should clarify a few things: In no way was I implying that such goals are exclusive to veganism. You could just as easily meet a vegan who treats you like shit as a meat-eater brimming with compassion. Thanks for that, Michael
Also, as those who come here know, I’m not one for heroes. This post was the result of me stumbling across a site about Gandhi and deciding to share it.
(I’ll add a mention of these to the original post.)
As for that milk story. I do not know the specifics but I doubt that milk deprivation was the cause of death.
How long have you been doing yoga, JOS?
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/16 at 08:02 AMi can’t actually remember if the kid died or not. i don’t think it did die(’it’ because can’t remmber if it was boy or girl either!). i also agree that milk deprivation would not have been the cause of the illness. the point of the story, which i didn’t make clear, is that the people at the time, gandhi included, thought that milk would have helped the illness but gandhi was willing to see the child die rather than give the medication that was thought (albeit erroneously) necessary.
Posted by michael on from scotland 10/16 at 08:12 AMwhen it comes to the debate about meat-eating a reason a lot of people give for it is that humans are naturally omnivores and so on. we have evolved thumbs for gripping meat and certain teeth for tearing, eyes on the front of the head for hunting rather than at the side for seeing who is hunting us etc. this may be true as far as it goes but its certainly not natural to buy meat that has been trucked up and down the country for slaughter and packaging, wrapped in plastic and been grazing on land pumped full of pesticides. this argument however, could also be made about people who don’t grow their own vegetables.
i am just thinking out loud here so sorry if its i am rambling and its a bit boring. i think the most compelling arguments i hear about veganism are the ones suggesting that arable farming is the most cost effective way to feed an exploding population. the desire in the west for cheap meat means that a lot of people in toher countries go hungry.
there is an element of it that i think depends on where you are from. this is a meat producing area as no vegetables (or at least not many that people want to eat) can be effectively farmed here so there is a lot of grazing land. i also know a couple of farmers and the weird thing is that they do care for their animals deeply but still send them off to the slaughterhouse. it seems so strange to say it but thats the way it is.
Posted by michael on from scotland 10/16 at 08:51 AMMichael: Trust me, I could go on for pages and pages in explaining veganism (and I have). At the end of the day, since there is no proof that humans need animal food to survive, why not choose the lifestyle that does not require the exploitation and death of other creatures?
Head’s up: For some reason, I am not receiving notifications of comments here. Thus, I may be a little slow in replying today...until I can get this resolved.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/16 at 08:55 AMGood morning all....Good stuff here today, Mickey. I did not know about vegans and silk. Please tell us more about that. Yesterday at the farmers’ market I bought the last organic spinach that will be available to me locally until next summer. Across the state in Brattleboro there is a wonderful large co-op that sells organic foods but unfortunately that is a distance and over the mountain and through the woods.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/16 at 09:02 AMi think you are right about that, esepcially as i live in the city. i just never seem to manage to make the break.
i have travelled a bit and i have noticed in mountainous regions the diet is always more meat-oriented (even in the himalayas where they are hindus). this is for a couple of reasons - 1 is that its difficult to grow veg in such places but its also because the fat content of the meat helps in harsher climes. i have seen this dietary effect in many places though it is not without exception. the higher up they are, the more meat they eat. that said, none of it really applies to major cities.
Posted by michael on from scotland 10/16 at 09:07 AMMorning, RMJ. Here’s something on silk: http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qasilk.htm
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/16 at 09:11 AM“How long have you been doing yoga, JOS? “
off and on since I met my wife 7 years ago...she’s a yoga teacher. but I made a three month commitment today and I’m sticking to it...my back already feels better.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 10/16 at 11:06 AMHappy Sunday, Folks!
(Now shoot me, hurry!)
Mickey, there was an American Zen guy, Alan Watts, who was a vegetarian. Someone mentioned to him that it was absurd to refrain from eating meat, when, in order to eat at all, one had to kill SOMETHING. Vegetables, also, were alive, but were killed in order to eat them.
Watts was quiet for a time, then responded:
“Yes, you’re quite right, vegetables also have to be killed. But - animals scream louder.”What bothers me most, Michael, I think is the generalized disrespect so many people have for animals - as if it matters not at all what we do to them, or how, or why. In the US, we have “factory farms.” In some states, such as Illinois, it is ILLEGAL to take a photograph of a factory farm. That tells me all I need to know.
Quite an interesting piece on Gandhi, by Orwell. I think he summed up my general feeling about Gandhi, very nicely:
“...he was an interesting and unusual man who enriched the world simply by being alive… One feels of him that there was much he did not understand, but not that there was anything that he was frightened of saying or thinking… compared with the other leading political figures of our time, how clean a smell he has managed to leave behind!”
Hi Rosemarie - I think Don McCormick may have hot-house / hydroponic veggies growing throughout the winter. He’s not all THAT far from you…
JOS - keep it up, Man. Some of those Yoga postures and stretches are incredibly effective. I’ve trashed my back a few times, over the years. Without some Yoga, and some weird “self-modified” Yoga stretches and postures, I’d be all but immobilized… You have an instructor right at home with you - quite a gift!
I’m off. Have a great day, everyone…Posted by joe on from Oregon 10/16 at 01:35 PMI can appreciate the humor in Watts’ reply, Joe, but that type of exchange is actually very common. It’s always amusing to see humans suddenly “care” about killing vegetables when it comes time to defend their flesh habit.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/16 at 05:12 PMHere’s a story, topical but one day late and a bit long:
Spring 2001, I had been a strict vegetarian since 1994, and I find myself hiking in the Carpathian Mountains in Slovakia with a friend. As evening rolls in, we rambled, exhausted, into a little village split down the middle with Hungarians on one side and Romas on the other. Neither group welcomed visitors and we had no place to camp. Just as we reached the far end of the town an old Slovak approached us, greeted us cordially, and when we asked him where we might stay, offered us his farm as a campground. Tiny place, maybe two acres; a few sheds, some chickens and some stalks of corn. As we’re finding a spot to lay the tents he comes from his house and offers us beers. We went into the house and he said “you boys must be hungry,” and after a full day walking with heavy packs, we certainly were. So he brought out a plate with two meat-type things on it. One was obviously homemade sausage, the other appeared to be processed turkey. Too embarassed to refuse the old farmer’s hospitality, I reached reluctantly for the turkey, the lesser--I supposed--of two evils. My friend would gladly eat the sausages. But before I put anything on my plate, the farmer’s wife walked in and quickly took away the turkey, saying to her husband “These boys won’t eat that!” What I had thought was turkey turned out to be nothing but pure pork fat.
Later on, after munching half a plate of sausages, the farmer gave us a tour of his farm. He introduced us to what had to be the happiest looking pig I will ever see in my life. He said “This is our pig, December. We’re going to eat him in December.”
The next morning, as we said our goodbyes, the farmer encouraged us to think about eating ‘slonina’--congealed pork fat. He gestured to his knees and said that it was the daily portions of slonina that had kept him in such good shape all his years. Since then I lapse all-too-regularly from a vegetarian diet, but I’ve never been able to bring myself to chow down on slonina.
Posted by KBN on from The Hague 10/16 at 05:24 PMHi, Mickey! I’m a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of your site! I don’t know if you’ve read L. Ron Hubbard’s work “Dianetics” but L. Ron sez very similar things! Cool website though! I love the graphics! I am very interested in some of your writings about the false connections the medico-industrial complex has THEORIZED (merely!) between HIV and AIDS, and I was wondering if you could do a post on the subject soon? Cool! Just finished my copy of “50 Revolutions” (would you believe the Borders near my house carried it?!) and you remind me of one of my favorite radical historians: Howard Zinn! Your writing is so cool that I was wondering if you are down with some of my other favorite writers like Alexander Cockburn and Paul Craig Roberts. Do you know them personally?
Posted by Morton Dong on from Topeka, KS 10/17 at 12:57 AMBTW, does anyone know of any places in Kansas where I could find a yoga studio? I asked my friend, but he called me a “homo” and told me Yoga is for liberals!
Posted by Morton Dong (Hiroaki Katayama) on from Topeka, KS 10/17 at 01:00 AMHey, Mickey.
Superb historical writing. I saw your recent piece on CounterPunch. Tell me, what did you think of John Dower’s “War Without Mercy”? Just curious.
Best,
Donnie
Posted by Donald Sanskrit on from Hiroshima, Japan 10/17 at 03:42 AMQuick facts about Winston Churchill contd.
7. Practicing satanist (or Bil or Bel or Baphomet or whatever they like to call it).
Population explosion is a myth propagated by an elite not keen on people of other genotypes breeding. Ralph Epperson pointed out in The Unseen Hand if you split the world population (which he put at four billion at the time) into families of four and gave them each a piece of land 50’ x 53’ you´d fit everybody snug into Oregon.
Posted by Owen on from Barcelona 10/17 at 05:07 AMOwen...sure you could fit them into Oregon, but what would you feed them?
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 10:52 AMWOW - quite a post there, Mickey! And hi to everybody on this comment thread - no, I won’t mention names because I always forget someone.
Thanks for always brightening up my day and for making me think - ‘mickeyz.net’ is now the first stop on my daily ‘blog surf’.
I love Arundhati Roy as well btw ..Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 10/17 at 02:57 PMHello, Helga…
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 03:46 PM
Next entry: Guantanamo POWs: Nothing new going on there
Previous entry: The day we won the lottery
Copyright © 2005-2007 Mickey Z.
