Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Monday, November 21, 2005
Tookie Williams and the death penalty
Great post Mickey (I missed it back in April). And nice to read those comments from Joe, Rosemarie, and Harry back in April. My own 2 cents: no murder. None. Not ever. Given the chance, I wouldn’t put a bullet in anyone, and I wouldn’t ask anyone to do it for me, no matter how bad I believed their crimes to be. Personally I think this is different from both the issues of pacifism and veganism. This is about planned murder as a matter of policy decided by a (narrow) majority-rules society of generally poorly informed people.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 11/21 at 07:47 AMKeir, you basically hit the nail right on the head here: “This is about planned murder as a matter of policy decided by a (narrow) majority-rules society of generally poorly informed people.”
Great discussion in the comments section, this topic really got you guys going.
I agree that it may be necessary to kill someone in self-defense, but man, I am not sure I would be able to pull the trigger. I can’t imagine what life would be like after having killed another human being. I have always been aware that killing, even insects, was against my nature. I have always used my fists for self defense, however I usually took more punches than I gave out. Thankfully, my large size has allowed me to avoid many a confrontation.
I have killed many mosquitos, though, especially here in PR. It is a form of self-defense in a way as they pass on a nasty virus called Dengue.
Posted by JOS on from mi orgullo, Puerto Rico 11/21 at 08:50 AMMore of Big Country’s Links...if you want to know the details behind the propaganda program for the Iraq War II check this out:
Posted by JOS on from mi orgullo, Puerto Rico 11/21 at 08:55 AMi always had the voltaire quote down as “anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
add up to the same thing i suppose
after a self-imposed day off from mickeys because i was being huffy on saturday i have decided to make my ‘return’
Posted by michael on from scotland 11/21 at 09:17 AMMorning, Gents.
Michael, you’re welcome here...even when huffy.
Keir: Excellent comments...and I agree with Big Country, that last resort self-defense is something completely different and even then, who knows what each of us might do?
Hope everyone will voice their opinion to Arnold, re: Tookie.
Big Country, an excerpt from Seven Deadly Spins to complement your link above:
“For some people, war is terror, disaster, and death,” says syndicated columnist Norman Solomon. “For others, it’s a PR problem”
As mentioned earlier, the use of public relations during wartime went truly public during the first Gulf War…with TV as its ultimate smart bomb. Speaking in 1991, Richard Hass of the National Security Council, called television “our chief tool in selling our policy.”
It is estimated that after being invaded by Iraq on August 2, 1990, the government of Kuwait funded as many as 20 PR, law, and lobby firms to marshal world opinion. One of those firms, The Rendon Group, a public relations outfit with offices in Boston and Washington, was called on again after America’s post-9/11 assault on Afghanistan. In order to make itself look good while bombing Afghanistan, the Pentagon offered Rendon a four-month deal worth $397,000.
“We needed a firm that could provide strategic counsel immediately,” Lt. Col. Kenneth McClellan, a media officer at the Pentagon, said. “We were interested in someone that we knew could come in quickly and help us orient to the challenge of communicating to a wide range of groups around the world.”
“Rendon has moved in some powerful economic circles, with clients including official trade agencies of the United States, Bulgaria, Russia and Uzbekistan,” says Solomon. “The firm made a lot of money by contracting with the CIA to do media work for the Iraqi National Congress, an organization seeking the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.”
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 11/21 at 10:17 AMI knew I had read about Rendon somewhere before, Mick and it must have 7 Deadly Spins. As the link says he got $16 million this time…
As I drove home for lunch this afternoon I was forced to stop traffic for a few minutes as what must have been a 3 or 3 1/2 foot iguana stared me down right in front of my car...he eventually made it into some nearby bushes.
Posted by JOS on from Calle Colón 11/21 at 10:38 AMIt’s 10:46 in Astoria. Expecting rain. Didn’t see any iguanas on the subway this morning.
Q. What does a 3 1/2 foot iguana eat?
A. Anything it wants.Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 11/21 at 10:47 AMThis one looked like it ate well and often, beautiful, really.
Have you seen this, Michael?:
Posted by JOS on from Calle Colón 11/21 at 11:14 AMI watched a TV show with Michael novak as the featured guest yesterday, prior to having pot roast at my sister’s. I was appalled. He says, as though this was a GOOD thinkg, that capitalism is the inevitable result of Judeo-Christian monotheism..."you do different things when you believe God is separate from the earth, other, and not the earth itself.” http://www.michaelnovak.net/
Any part of this freakazoid’s website will outrage the complacent leftist. Here’s someone who needs a bullet, special delivery.
NaNo-ing away. Much to do, see “anyone” who’s here later.
Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 11/21 at 11:27 AMBy the way, Mickey, it’s the can-can dress, definitely the dress.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 11/21 at 11:56 AMJOS - it IS a nice dress, no doubt. I think I’d prefer it in, say, a nice mauve… something more subdued, don’t you agree?
I think you and Keir pretty much summed up my feelings about killing… great posts, you guyz.
I just signed the petition for Tookie.Ever see a film or pictures of a major body-building competition?
I used to read those Joe Weider rags from time to time, and I’d see Arnold out there posing and flexing beside all those behemoths…
Arnold would be up on stage, at the end of the competitions, with guys like Frank Zane and Lou Ferrigno and Franco Columbo and Lee Haney and Bill Pearl…
I could never figure out how they chose Arnold as the winner. Oh, I read about their reasons, but those other guys looked just as huge, just as cut, just as symmetrical, just as awesome. But Arnold always won. I guess he couldn’t see any luck or good fortune in it, despite the fact that, only a few years before, he’d been just another confused, unknown immigrant, hoping for success in the Empire…
I guess he figured he’d “earned” the incredibly unusual genetics necessary to reach the top levels of professional body-building. I guess he decided that he out-worked and out-posed the other monsters out there on the stage.After bodybuilding, Arnold became a movie actor. Following a couple of Conan the Barbarian type films, he was picked to play the Terminator, and soon he was one of the biggest action-movie stars in the world. I guess he saw no luck, no good-fortune in that, either. I guess he felt he earned his fame and riches with great acting and witty repartee. Anyone could have done it, with enough hard work and a few acting lessons… it’s just that most folks weren’t willing to try hard enough.
Then, Arnold married into the Kennedy family. He became part of one of the most powerful, legendary political dynasties in American history. No luck or good fortune there, either. Just hard work, some honest “wooing.”
Hundreds of millions of dollars and a few years down the road, and Arnold decided to run for Governor of California. He was elected on his first attempt. He was elected Governor of the richest, most populated state, in the richest most powerful nation in the world…
No luck there either, as Arnold sees it, I suppose. Just hard work and a solid grasp of the issues. The best man won the prize…A few minutes ago, I asked this man not to murder a poor black guy from South Central Los Angeles, a neighborhood so tough, most of the body-builders cited above would wet their pants if they suddenly found themselves stranded there, for a few minutes, before the Limo arrived to whisk them away. I guess Tookie just didn’t work hard enough to transcend the terrible burden of poverty and racism and ignorance and violence that swirled all around him, and in him, as he grew up.
He should have said “No,” to all of it.
He should have become close friends with Joe & Ben Weider, worked hard to win 4 or 5 or 6 Mr. Olympia titles, gone on to become a movie star, and then get himself elected Governor of California.
Too lazy and stupid even to help himself -
Why should Arnold pardon such a fellow?Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/21 at 01:06 PMpakistan earthquake relief, use your own discretion:
this site has a list of charities: http://tinyurl.com/8hyoc
Hangknot by Woody Guthrie
Did you ever see a hangman tie a hangknot?
Did you ever see a hangman tie a hangknot?
I’ve seen it many a time and he winds, he winds,
After thirteen times he’s got a hangknot.Tell me will that hangknot slip, no it will not,
Will that hangknot slip, no it will not.
Slip around your neck, but it won’t slip back again
Hangknot, hangknot, that hangknot.Did you ever lose your father on a hangknot?
Did you ever lose your father on a hangknot?
They hung him from a pole, and they shot him full of holes,
Left him there to rot on that hangknot.Tell me who makes the laws for that hangknot?
Who makes the laws for that hangknot?
Who says who will go to the calaboose?
Get the hangman’s noose on a hangknot.I don’t know who makes the law for that hangknot.
I don’t know who makes the law for that hangknot.
But the bones of many a men are whistling in the wind,
Just because they tied their laws with a hangknot.Posted by tm on from lycurgus 11/21 at 01:55 PMJoe...but hot pink is so Mickey’s color. Yes, he could have accesorized better, lost the baseball cap and worn some heels...maybe next time.
Great Arnold timeline, Joe.
By the way, who but the US military could say something like this after an Iraqi family was gunned down at a US checkpoint:
“This is a tragedy,” said Major Steve Warren, a spokesman for U.S. forces in Baquba, near where the shooting occurred.
“But these tragedies only happen because Zarqawi and his thugs are out there driving around with car bombs,” he added, referring to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a militant leader in Iraq.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 11/21 at 01:56 PMThanks, tm!
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 11/21 at 01:59 PMGreat song by an extraordinary man, TM. Thanks.
Do you have a bunch of old albums or - where are you finding these songs?JOS -
Maybe some of those long ear-rings, then, if we’re staying with the pink.
Something to tie the hat and dress together…
Maybe mauve ear rings.I’ve seen people on TV get paid to have conversations like this, JOS! Maybe we should start our own glamor-gab site, we’re obviously very good at it.
Mickey can model and we’ll discuss fashion do’s and dont’s…
“The Anarchist’s Mirror!” - tonight at 9.Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/21 at 02:52 PMAlso:
“...these tragedies only happen because Zarqawi and his thugs are out there driving around with car bombs...”Marines can get scared and trigger happy and kill innocent people because they’re in a violent hostile environment.
Black kids in very scary, violent, impoverished, hostile environments may NOT use that environment as either reason or excuse for their behaviors.
Ah. A reasoning as American as Apple Pie!
Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/21 at 02:59 PMYeah, but then they’ll start printing rumors about Mick on Page 6 and busting him on “Fashion Police,” then some right wing nut will start saying see, Mickey Z is nothing but a Michael Moore in drag...of course, you and I would defend him saying, “But Michael Moore could never pull off the latest Versace like Mick can...that, and McMoore owns stock in Haliburton.” And so on and so on...there are just some roads best left untravelled.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 11/21 at 03:03 PMAnother great post, Mickey! Moving words about the death penalty - at least Australian politicians are firmly opposed to capital punishment and won’t heed any calls for its re-introduction. An Australian citizen is going to be executed on Dec 2 in Singapore and our government has made numerous submissions to the Singapore government but to no avail.
And to say it again: you look good in a dress!
Before I forget: hi to all of you MZ’ers! Another beautiful spring day is coming up in Daylesford, Australia.Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 11/21 at 03:07 PMJoe, missed your second comment:
“Black kids in very scary, violent, impoverished, hostile environments may NOT use that environment as either reason or excuse for their behaviors.”
So very well said, my man.
That and, as Nimmo says, Zarqawi isn’t even alive, and no foreign terrorists came to Iraq until after the US invaded and in fact, the hostile environment is being CREATED by US military presence.
Posted by JOS on from Puerto Rico 11/21 at 03:07 PMAnd for all that research you did on Arnold S., joe.
Re Rendon: I HAVE heard about that firm but found your comment most illuminating.captcha: bed. On that note: it’s 7:20 am on a Tuesday morning in eastern Australia.
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 11/21 at 03:20 PMHey, the hostile environment in South Central is mostly created by government, corporations, and police.
I hereby demand their immediate withdrawal from Los Angeles.BTW -
I’ve been a Future’s Trader, off and on, for a long time.
I just closed out my ( relatively minor ) account, forever. Now, we’re down and out and living by our wits, as it were.
And, I’m fucking delighted.It’s all downhill from here.
When you’ve got gravity on your side, anything’s possible!Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/21 at 03:23 PMMeant to say: and THANKS for all that research you did on Arnold S., joe! And the Rendon mention referred to your most illuminating comment, Mickey. Must be the ‘change’ getting to me!
Great conversations going on on Mickey Z’s comment threads ..‘That and, as Nimmo says, Zarqawi isn’t even alive, and no foreign terrorists came to Iraq until after the US invaded and in fact, the hostile environment is being CREATED by US military presence.’ Too right you are, JOS!
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 11/21 at 03:34 PM“...Marines can get scared and trigger happy and kill innocent people because they’re in a violent hostile environment....”
Hi Joe and all others....Every Marine over there has made the “informed” decision to go to Iraq. There are no draftees in Iraq. Some would argue that the decisions were NOT “informed”, that is why we have to get them to visit Mickey’s.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 11/21 at 03:36 PMJoe, perfectly said re: Arnold. Remind me on Saturday, I have a story to tell in which Arnold plays no small part.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 11/21 at 04:27 PMHello everyone. Excellent comments...and I don’t just mean the debate about my fashion sense (sic).
Joe, I knew Arnold in the 80s when I worked at a gym he frequented. I’ll have to share more about that soon.
On the topic of the death penalty, Helga sent me this: http://tinyurl.com/7fzdg
TM: I will re-post your links tomorrow. Thanks.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 11/21 at 06:03 PMHi Folks -
Helga, I didn’t see you there, I’m sorry.
You know, I just watched Mr. Arnold, as he went, wondering from time to time at how everything seemed to fall almost miraculously into place for him.
I guess it’s nearly noon where you are - noon, tomorrow. It’s 4:20 pm, here in your yesterday.Keir - Thanks, man. I’m looking forward to Saturday.
Welcome home, Mickey. Sorry I didn’t get to hear your radio interview with the people just up North. I hope it went well.
Interesting, disturbing stuff about this Rendon guy. “Perception Management”
How exactly does that differ from “Flim-Flam,” or “Matchstick Man,” or “Con Artist,” again?
I’m not clear…
I’m looking forward to your tales about Arnold, as well, Mickey.If I had to place a bet, I’d bet that Arnold ignores our pleas that he spare Tookie. Unless, of course, there’s some political capital tucked in there, somewhere, which I’m not seeing at present.
Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/21 at 07:36 PMQuick note, Joe: I’m not on Portland radio till Wednesday.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 11/21 at 07:43 PMIt’s 10:18 in rainy Astoria. G’Night, all.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 11/21 at 10:19 PMSorry, Mickey - I’ve been on some other planet most of the day.
I’m screwed for Wednesday, too, it seems.
Well, perhaps one day I’ll see you on FSTV or Democracy Now… You’d be great…“face”
It’s 10:02pm, on the 6th or 7th straight day of nothing but fog…
Posted by joe on from Oregon 11/22 at 01:02 AMwhats the difference between a minority killing and arnold theres is no diff so why not give him 25 to life i dont care if he is important think about all the people arnold hurt by not having a heart and feeling good about killing i mean if there is a movement of a lot of people obviously tookie could have saved lives but just because he is not white he got denied clemency so stay up 2 every body that tried snoop every body we couldnt save him but at least we tried and if tookie was not admitting to something even though it meant death obviuosly he didnt do it thanx to yall alwayz and forever Stanley Tookie Williams.
Posted by baby d on from medford oregon 12/14 at 01:00 AMThanks for stopping by, Baby D.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/14 at 05:42 AM
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