Mickey Z

Cool Observer

Tuesday, December 27, 2005

Early Freedom Fighters: The African-Seminole Alliance

Posted by Mickey Z on 12/27 at 08:01 AM

Today’s lead post sounds like yet another case of Indian peoples behaving with courage, honour & dignity, while the ruthless, politically minded oppressors attempted an overpowering move through superior numbers & brutality. How refreshing that they were able to hold off for a while.

Also, can I remind people why the Indians were named that? Beacuse some genius called Columbus got his co-ordinates oo just a little bit out ... heh heh heh.

To give an instance of revolutions from a different time & continent, can I mention part of the Easter Uprising in 1916, when Irish Catholics attempted to throw off the yoke of the British invaders? Two revolutionaries conned their way into a British fort claiming ... to be looking for a football ... oh man that’s priceless!

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 09:49 AM

Morning to All,

It seems that I missed all the gangster talk about Momo yesterday and I still have to find out where to try some of it.

MZ,I think you might’ve come across Banksy on Youngfox’s site....from who’s proudly won copy of 50AR I read of the Seminoles. Great story that. (not as in great “times”, but you know.)

Here’s another native tale that has a good punch line:
http://tinyurl.com/b8lg5

Hulk Hogan!!! I’d even cheated - saw hulk but kept trying to see Lou Ferrigno and it just wasn’t working for me.

Whatever any of you do, if it includes watching hockey - do your best to avoid watching the Hulk’s daughter sing your national anthem. It’s truly awful. Last hockey season (2 years ago) she sang at just about every home game for the Tampa Bay Lightning. After the first few times where I could only cringe and flick away, it became a sort of embarrasing entertainment. And she has the same dayglo tanned skin and harsh hair colour as her dad!

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 09:53 AM

Morning Chris,

We were on at the same time - the history of the Irish Republic is fascinating to me. If we can say that it ‘worked’ simply because they’re a republic - leaving aside for the moment the entire mess that still is ‘the North’; I wonder if this is not largely because there was a single people united for a single cause. While there are many nuances to the Irish culture throughout the small island, essentially they had little differences amongst themselves, thereby making it easier to unite for the purposes of independance.

I realise there are many many other nuances in the mix here, but that one fact, that a small population of an island nation can perhaps unite more easily than can a people with a large country and many differentiating factors with which to divide themselves unconciously.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 10:00 AM

Mornin’ CHris. We’re the first EXpendables.

Let’s see if this works:

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:02 AM

Morning Mudge,

I just came across some seasonally appropriate Banksy vandalism again on EI...vandalised oil painting #031,2005. (re: yesterday’s post - I’m catching up a little)

In case the above is not the picture…
http://tinyurl.com/9ane5

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 10:08 AM

oh - didn’t mean to ignore Hamsun - I have no idea who he is though - I know you were discussing him the other day, but I remain ignorant. Now to google searching to enlighten myself somewhat.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 10:10 AM

Mudge goes techno on us, huh?

G’morning, all. Chris, I found this on the Easter Uprising: http://tinyurl.com/a4rkx. Amelopsis, I’m sorry to say that moon shot story might be an urban legend: http://tinyurl.com/bqphe. However, I’m fascinated to learn you are a Tampa Bay Lightning fan. You are full of surprises.

Another 40+ degree day here. We’ll be getting out to enjoy it soon.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 10:11 AM

Well, hot damn! It worked! Googled up Hamsun and got this book cover off the Norwegian Nobel site.

Amelopsis #3: Dunno about that hypothesis...Why, from the viewpoint of a large place like Texas, does England have regions, still less regional differences llike Scots and Welsh cultures on one dinky islandlet? And the Cornish? Gimme a break, the county I live in is bigger than Cornwall, what Cornish culture?!

IMHO, the reson it worked in IReland was the critical mass of people was pro-independence and anti-English. Once the tipping point is reached, the slide into another state is inevitable. Sorta like what the Repulsivecans did to the USA with thier direct-mail campaigns aimed aquarely at their party’s natural enemies, the working class. Co-opted the fools with inflammatory rhetoric about how abused they were (and this from their abusers!) so we reached a tipping point and slid rightward a few thousand miles.

It was a long, patient campaign, and it worked. So was the irish independence movement. A groundswell arose, the slow and hard way to be sure, but arise it did.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:14 AM

Amelopsis #5: Cool image!
Amelopsis #6: Knut Hamsun, Nobel laureate for Literature 1920.

James likes Hunger, his first novel, and it’s also widely hailed as the first novel of the 20th century’s favorite genre, the anti-hero’s quest. I say pfui, as I so often do, because all Hunger was Neitzsche’s Man and Superman with a new suit on.

MZ #7: Hell, man, there are naked images of men at stake! I will work long and hard (oh dear, bad in this context I guess) to figure out how to decorate with my favorite images! Caravaggio, anyone?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:23 AM

Mudge I think you’re right about the tipping point being reached by a people united in pro-Independance and anti-English. But, there are definitely culturaly differences which would have been even more clear in that era. The Wicklow hills for example where Parnell hailed from and from whence some of the most stalwart fighters in the Irish resistance came; was at the time a relatively isolated region only about an hour from Dublin. People there frequently had never left their villages. They were however united and compelled beyond any identity they might hold as unique.
Easy to do when England sends it’s shell shocked soldiers to ‘maintain order’ and they end up going looney and throwing grenades about the main street when you’re getting a loaf from the bakery.

The Irish Uprising is a story of ‘almosts’ right up until today.
As with almost every account of a repressed group overcoming the odds, their tenacity was underestimated.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 10:26 AM

At the risk of going too far with the point Mudge and Amelopsis are making, I will suggest that perhaps humans do everything “best” in smaller groups. We evolved in tribes or clans and have since subjected this Stone Age brain of ours to a Space Age society. Under such conditions, it’s difficult to imagine something as complex as social revolution going smoothly.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 10:36 AM

You know, Amelopsis, the idea of anything in the British Isles being “isolated” is ludicrous to me. An hour’s travel in any direction from my house and you’re not even out of the Austin MSA. I hear things like “isolated Wicklow Hills” and think, “Hell, that’s just as far away as Burnet!” where I go to visit a friend every week or so. My continento-centrism is such that I can’t even bend my brain around the scale of reference.

The Brits underestimated another thing: Strong cultural identity. “We are us, not you.” Like the USA did in Vietnam...no one here had any idea that Vietnam was a self-ruling kingdom ethnically and politically differentiated from the hugely dominant Chinese nations to the north, with a folk heroine Empress who defeated the hated Chinese oppressors to protect the poeple from being absorbed into China’s sphere. It wasn’t common knowledge, anyway, though it wasn’t like we had no access to the information from the French (I got books of translations of Vietnamese legends from my parents in 1967, re-translated from the French, so I know first-hand what was available).

Arrogance. It’s what knocks every empire down in the end.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:44 AM

Damn it I’m not a Neitzschian, fascist or Nazi-- I enjoyed Hunger in similar way I enjoyed Bartleby, Factotum, and Down and out in Paris and London… okay, I guess I was projecting my own issues onto them, but still. Better talk about all this and read through posts later, better not get in trouble here…

Say it with me-- I would prefer…

Posted by James on from NYC 12/27 at 10:49 AM

MZ #11: “...I will suggest that perhaps humans do everything “best” in smaller groups.”

Not in my observation. It was a small group that decided to burn its witches, with no over-arching political or religious group urging them to do so. It was a small group that decided to poison Socrates. A small group that gifted us with Christianity.

Size doesn’t matter. People are nasty, vicious bastards at heart, and will express this at the earliest opportunity. The larger the group, the less concentrated the specific vitriol. Look at the idiocy about gay marriage. It’s really just you straight people saying “eeeeewwwwwww” to gay people about sex. But because the dilution os huge, we don’t get new sodomy laws (which would inconvenience straight people too) we just get demonstrations of dislike forbidding what already can’t be done.

I like biiiiiiiiig political structures, unresponsive though they may be to my personal needs, because they isolate not only me, but Crazy Lady in the house behind me who thinks killin’ ‘em is too good for [insert anyone not her here]. Her brand of insanity is catching...look at Germany in the 1930s, when a decade of anarchy had so traumatized people that any rigid, supportive ideology was positively hailed.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:58 AM

MZ, I don’t think you’re going too far with the point. Actually you make it more concisely. It seems to be a distilate of what otherwise be diluted among a larger group. I was getting a little too blabbery to make my point very well. (lot’s of good rebel songs too - all work & no play...)

And - I’m not really a fan of any particular hockey team, but brooke hogan just marked every away game played in Tampa with her toneless screeching. I won’t make this a habit, but here’s a still shot that I actually remember from her infamous performances
Even though she looks to be in pain, it’s a rather flattering picture believe it or not.

But I’m sure she’s a nice person. :|

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 11:02 AM

James #13: Whoa, dim down a notch, darlin’, I never said you were any of those things! I said the BOOK was, and that you liked the book. There is no Transitive Property of Hatefulness in literature! I like murder mysteries a lot, am I a serial killer because of it? I read a lot of books about Christian thought, and Buddhist thought, and I can’t be both those religions’ adherent.

Silly Untermenschen, can’t make a point without rilin’ ‘em up....>NUDGE<

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 11:04 AM

Mudge you make a very valid point about small groups too. I suppose that ultimately the small group is what sets the ball rolling. When things work out well, the ball is rolling in the right direction. When Crazy Ladies unite, the ball ends up rolling into a peaceful village, killing the inhabitants.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 11:06 AM

Not enough time to reply at length but, Mudge, I think the small group examples you give existed within a large group mentality. I agree that humans are a devious lot, but I wonder how things might be different without so much “progress.”

Heading out now. I’ll see everyone later.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 11:08 AM

I know, I know, just frustrated I never saw Neitzsche in Hunger myself, if that’s what was going on, also nervous here, etc., frustrated can’t read rest of posts…

Those five words still-- oh yeah, forgot to mention the other day, the Crispin Glover Bartleby movie, damn weird.

Posted by James on from NYC 12/27 at 11:09 AM

Re: Photo in #15, thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer thank god I’m queer

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 11:11 AM

Ha!re #15 & #20
Yes Mudge - I don’t quite know what the allure is for so many straight men when that’s the result of a great expenditure of cosmetics and treatments. Frightening waste of funds.

re: distances and #12 - Coming from a place where a 7.5 hour drive was necessary to reach a big city, I could never grasp the problem either; until I lived outide London and it took an average of 1 1/2 hrs to drive 15 miles into the city. None of the roads go in straight lines.

Chris I saw Crispin Glover give an interview the other day and that movie did sound interesting. He a weird guy - I like that about him. I think he might just have some principles - explains why you don’t see much of him in the mainstream.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 11:21 AM

Amelopsis #17: Small groups inside large ones are trouble. The sense of being apart from, different from, and ultimately better than, is inevitable. I make the point myself when I tout my superiority as exemplified by my queerness. Thing is I believe it...I think all the world’s problems stem from a bizarre, unnatural insistence humans have to live with them they breed with. In the natural world, that’s largely unknown, and the exceptions are hailed while the majority behavior is ignored.

It’s an outmoded survival strategy. Needs to be dropped. Shuffled on. Sent to Coventry.

MZ #18: I await a lengthier reply, with rebuttal. Cite examples. Extraordinarily peaceful Polynesian societies? Hmmm...they had wars; they had rigid social structures that proscribed difference of opinion. The Kung of Africa? Hunter-gatherers with highly ritualized distributios of the earth’s bounty, not significantly different from a money economy in effect (some get more than others). Prone to cutting loose society’s most vulnerable, eg abandoning Granny when she can’t keep up...not a thing I, disabled as I am, wanna see emulated any more than the Repulsivecans have already.

What example am I unaware of, among the squillions I haven’t said anything about?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 11:27 AM

James #19: Why frustrated? Waste of time. Other people have different perceptions, which is why I like to discuss and dispute things with those who have a lot of ideas and opinions and facts that I don’t have. How else am I gonna get to know things I don’t already know, and don’t know that I don’t know them? MZ will come back with some response to my points in #22 that I will either be able to dispute, or not; if not, I’ll have to run off and learn about them so I can dispute them or (grudgingly, grumbling the whole time) change my mind.

What you don’t see is always the path to bigger and better ideas and more and better opinions with which to stuff your little punkin head. This is “autodidacticism” at its finest.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 11:35 AM

Amelopsis #21: Straight men (as a grooup) also like to watch lesbian sex. They are clearly warped in some very bizarre ways by this idiotic cultural construct “heterosexuality.” Poor bastards.

Straight lines are not to be found in my neighborhood. Not one street runs all the way through the neighborhood connecting one thoroughfare to another throughfare. It’s a calculated attempt to recreate the very thing that London has naturally: Haphazardness. It makes for a real sense of community, of isolation from certain outside pressures that most people find agreeable.

With that agreeableness, though, come restrictive covenants that enforce uniform looks and uses of the land. I personally find this facet of the trend disagreeable. I loved the urban denseness of Manhattan. RIchard Sennett, a philosopher whose work I admire, wrote a fascinating book called The Uses of Disorder: Personal Identity and City Life, in 1970 and has expanded on the theme that only in urban chaos can true freedom be found...the communities within cities offer the best chance a person has to be him/erself. In propounding this idea, he runs across the issue of conflict, and wishes it away by saying habituation will make people more tolerant.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Anyone think of an example of this? Haymarket uprising, Watts in 1966, f/ex?

Profiles of Sennett are fascinating:
http://tinyurl.com/crlzf
http://tinyurl.com/cx9sc

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 11:56 AM

Some great ideas going around today - sorry I wasn’t around earlier!

The inherent nature of people is an age old debate - are we naturally slime or just benign? Well, I suppose anyone who lives around large fundamentalist Christian communities is likely to go with the former view. I am grateful to my own personal god that I have little to do with such people. Grasping for personal power brings out the worst in people, especially if it comes through joining any structure, where adding extra venom will / could / is perceived to yield dividends. People I know who joined the military prove this very well, and I wish them all faulty hand grenades.

Amelopsis re 3 - the mess in the north has as much to do with the standard exit strategy of the British when leaving occupied territory as anything - leave a clear amount of favouritism but make the margin of control close enough so everyone gets a shot at feeling they should run things. Bog standard divide & rule, & sickening with it. India & Pakistan is another good example of this. We really are terrible scum.

As somebody once said, if the British Army left Northern Ireland the whole area may slide into peace & prosperity.

Re posts 4 - 6 I don’t know who Knut Hamsum is either, but what the hell is he doing with my passport picture on the front of his book! I’m warning, I’ll sue ...

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 12:43 PM

Very interesting Mudge.
I’ve always enjoyed the small non-urban areas in which I’ve lived; and also enjoyed the more sub-urban places.
The countyrside is always so ‘comfortable’ somehow, even though I cannot say I’ve ever felt a sense of belonging within the human community of such a place; it’s the proximity to Nature that I feel comfortable with.
The anonymity of a dense urban area provides a palpable sense of freedom, but is also not someplace I’ve ever felt a sense of belonging.

I’ve always felt conflicted about these two aspects of societal existance.

Sennett seems a very interesting character...another person I didn’t know I wasn’t aware of.
So many things I don’t know about.

Your Polynesian reference reminds me I’ve not yet finished a book called “Mr. Fortune’s Maggot”. An odd and interesting tale of self discovery.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 12:57 PM

I have a knack for simultaneous typing today…
Chris the divide & conquer scenario is definitely a large part of the troubles today.
By the time anything like an uprising developed, the north had been so thoroughly ‘planted’ with those sympathetic to any anti-catholic sentiment that it was bound to become the region at odds with itself that it is today. A sorry tale of religion rearing its ugly head and blending itself with politics to muddle up the whole issue at hand.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 01:03 PM

Amelopsis - very true, and the blatant gerrymandering & victimisation of minorities made it a bloodiers, harsher struggle. The North Irish problems are a fine example of total dishonesty across the board in terms of media coverage. The bias was / is plain ridiculous.

As recently as this year I heard some (otherwise) intelligent people confidently tell me that the IRA helped provoke the Bloody Sunday massacre ... no mention from them at all that the innocents gunned down, none with political / paramilitary links, were found with guns within reach, that nobody present at the time reported seeing. This is gutter journalism & propaganda at its worst.

I don’t doubt the current War on Terror is a mirror example - to not report the atrocities of one side, to exaggerate & blame whole heartedly the (defensive, let’s not deny it) movements of the other side ... to express any doubt about the 100% hard line rule is to side with the terrorists. Disagreeing is not an option. We will not negotiate with terrorists ... ah shit.

I’m sick of calling it the War on Terror - such a vague, stupid term. How about the War Allowing Real Terror, which is both accurate & lets us use
the acronym WART (not to be confused with yesterday’s warty meanderings ...).

Yes, British policies on Northern Ireland have more than a semblance of WART about them.

Religion is little more than a means of identifying sectarianism - the scabby, silly differences between Catholic & Protestant (ie barking / differently barking) were just another means for people to get their knickers in a twist.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 01:12 PM

The Seminole/African story is my favorite from 50AR, Mick...Hello Mudge, Chris, Amelopsis, James and everyone else…

Hope to be back later tonight.

Posted by JOS on from Earth 12/27 at 02:33 PM

Hi, Mickey and thanks for the history lesson out of 50 AR - and, as usual, I LOVE the graphics, in this case the galloping horse.
And seeing the quality of the comments, links, pictures, etc. my fellow expendables put up with such regularity (you are such an intelligent bunch!), I’ll only add one link: a CounterPunch piece on Kurt Vonnegut and his latest book by David Swanson: http://counterpunch.org/swanson12272005.html
Have a good afternoon/night! Another summer day coming up in Daylesford, Australia - a pleasant 76F are forecast.

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/27 at 03:33 PM

I’m unsure of where some of you are obtaining your information on ireland. could you provide references for some of this information?

For example, the notion that irish culture is homogenous is absolutely false. Of course it wasn’t, and of course, it isn’t, and nor will it ever be. These romantic versions of history are common, and I’m not sure why people refuse to question them.

A single people for a single cause? Can that be explained, with reference to historical fact? You erasing class differences? You erasing tensions between “traveller” and “settled” community? etc, etc

Erase these romantic notions, and read more. Find out how the Irish government pays more per capita than England for Northern Ireland. Find out how the Irish government uses the North to crackdown on different groups within ireland, by claiming the need for a special criminal court due to the northern troubles. find out how sinn fein and the ira engage in vigilante justice, through vicious physical assaults on people who sell hash to guys that comment toward the wrong woman in a pub.

Hardly nuances. The more critical pieces of the puzzle allow the conversation to move beyond “small groups” and “large groups”, a discussion which seems to be an avoidance of critical inquiry.

Posted by john on from 12/27 at 03:56 PM

Chris #25: Human beings are naturally slime. Look around at all the good being done in the world...and its state. QED.

You look like the dude on ]i]Wayfarers[/i], eh? Caaaaandy, little boy? >evil, lecherous leer<

Amelopsis #26: Mr. Fortune’s Maggot? Goodness, I had no idea anyone still read Sylvia Townsend Warner books who wasn’t a professor. I loved [/i]Lolly Willowes[/i] as a depressed twentysomething. Set me on a kick for her books. Rather a gloomy old gal, in my memory at least. Never allowed a single one of her characters to set down roots without dying for their good fortune.

A soul sister of mine, actually.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 04:09 PM

Big Country #29! Welcome and how good it is to see you here!

Helga #30: Oh well, as John points out in #31, the quality of comments here is open to debate.

John #31: Hi, I haven’t seen you around here before, but I’m only a year or so into my Expendability. No one, to my knowledge, is claiming this is a definitive historical and political analysis of Ireland. The current state of affairs suits all concerned or it wouldn’t be the current state of affairs. This is true across time and space.

As to ignoring class boundaries, yes, we’re guilty of that in this discussion of Ireland past and present. It’s a useful lens for viewing old and intractable conflicts, but it’s not what we’re talking about here.

If you want some sort of critical inquiry, please feel free to get the ball rolling. I’m on record as saying I like to learn, so have at it!

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 04:19 PM

Mudge re 32 candy? I was hoping you had some puppies for me to see!

The overall effect of humanity can easily be seen as negative due to the power of some really shitty, atrocious people - can’t deny that for a moment.

But look at all the ones who self sacrifice and struggle to try to make up for this - I’d have to say there was a lot of grounds for real hope there. And I speak as someone who, admittedly, was far too lazy and cowardly to give up a year and work as a volunteer in a war torn country, true, but some other people did so there must be hope for them being decent souls, at the very least!

John re 31 Nobody is saying the IRA don’t take part in vigilante justice and a host of other evils. But the reporting of them has been completely twisted, as has the (thin on the ground) coverage of various Loyalist groups & their hand in certain types of unpleasantness.

I personally regard the propoganda and brutal military operations as far more important than any rose tinted view of the struggles.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 04:52 PM

Helga re 30 - thanks for the wonderful link on that Vonnegut article. I enjoyed it tremendously.

BTW, about two years ago Mr V wrote a splendid essay, available online, in which he explores the idea of fossil fuel addiction in far greater & more devastating detail. If anyone has the link, I will be eternally grateful.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 04:56 PM

Hello Everyone.
Many thanks for this splendid conversation. I feel like I’ve been out in the mountainous, ancient Greek countryside, tending my sheep, and that I’ve just wandered into Athens for a bit… A-h-h-h-h-h-hhhhhh!

Mickey - this is one of my very favorite “revolutions,” as well. Great way to get the ‘blood moving,’ today… Thanks, my friend. And, thanks for the Katz links, as well. I know a guy named Jerry Katz. His late wife used to say: “I love cats so much, I married one…”

JOS - JOS! Wonderful to see you, my young, old friend. Welcome back. Please, stop in sometimes and tell us of your travels and travails and triumphs in Paradise. You are missed, Big Country.

Amelopsis - I’ve never heard of Banksy. Very disturbing, fascinating stuff. Thanks for the link… and for the link to EI, which I’d only visited, once, quite some time ago. As soon as I arrived, I thought: “Oh, yes, this place! I found it once, then lost it.” I’ll not lose it again. Thank you!

Mr. Mudge, thank you for the introduction to Mr. Sennett. Why, this fellow used to live in Cabrini Green!!!! This is one of the toughest places in one of the toughest neighborhoods in the entire US… whew!
This fellow is a find… I’ve only read most of one of your links, but I’ll be perusing his work much more thoroughly, soon, I hope…

However, my friend, I still passionately disagree with you about who and what we are. I’m not at all certain that we need to turn to scholarship or to writings of any sort to come to a conclusion, but if such is necessary, one might read Zerzan, quite the highly respected scholar… or Chellis Glendinning, or Kirkpatrick Sale, or James Shreeve, or Kevin Tucker, or Mr. Rousseau, or Fredy Perlman, or Arnold DeVries, or Marshall Sahlins, or John Landau, Fredrick Turner, Paul Shepard, Mark Nathan Cohen, Tamarack Song, Robert Wolff, Madhusree Mukerjee, James Axtell, or some reflections on man and civilization from Schweitzer, or observations from ol’ Ben Franklin, on life in the colonies v. life out among the tribes….

But, methinks this aint it. Once I firmly rejected the NY Times, Washington Post, mainstream media generally, most college textbooks and attendant lists of “ acceptable” resources, and ten thousand references to what is true, what must be true or what - Damn It! - better be true!…. well, what was I left with? I was left with my own heart, my own mind, my own eyes and my own experiences… I, joe on from Oregon, am the fellow / scholar / source to whom I must turn because I am the fellow to whom I DO turn, whenever I choose to trust anyone! I mean - why Howard Zinn rather than David McCullough? It’s Zinn for me, but why??? McCullough can conjure up as many “reputable, admired, highly respected” scholars in his defence as can our beloved Zinn. More! So, why Zinn? For me, it’s Zinn because my heart tells me so, and because something about McCullough - as fine and busy a worker as he is - makes me nauseous….
I’m inclined to think, my friend, that we share this profound, incisive technique for unearthing the truth…
So, dearest Mudgester, my head and heart and gut tell me that we’re infinitely more than your head and heart and gut seem to tell you. That’s OK - even wonderful, according to my head and heart and gut…

John! Don’t know who you are but - HEY! That’s the Spirit!!! Wade in, lad, and let’s hear more! Welcome to the fray!

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/27 at 04:57 PM

Hello Everyone. Michele and I hiked about 3 miles around Forest Park here in Queens...followed by a delicious vegan organic lunch at a local cafe. Then, get ready: we finally bought a DVD player. The next trick will be setting the damn thing up.

Great to see Big Country make a cameo and Helga, thanks for the Vonnegut link. I liked his latest book...and just about everything he’s written.

Hello Amelopsis, Mudge, Joe, and Chris. John (#31), I’ve seen you lurking about for a while and I’m glad you decided to join in. We’re a friendly, open bunch. If you feel the strong desire to “move” the conversation beyond “small groups” and “large groups,” fine. That may or may not happen. If you truly believe we’re engaging in “an avoidance of critical inquiry,” fine again. That’s your opinion...and it’s welcome.

Mudge: We’ve had a conversation like this before. One can easily find endless examples of despicable human behavior to be used as a barometer of our inherent hopelessness. However, humans each day perform incredible acts of kindness, unselfishness, courage, and love. To catalog that list would be impossible. I’m not sure what all this means in terms of large groups, small groups, or John’s request for documentation...but it shouldn’t be ignored. I stand side-by-side with Joe on this one.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 05:10 PM

Hi Helga! Though I’ve never seen your smiling face, I’m just delighted to see your smiling face.
You’re a refreshing ray of light on a very dark, rainy, Northwestern US day…

Hi Mickey, nice to have you nearby! Best stand upwind, however - I’m smoking!
I’m really pleased to hear about the DVD player, Mickey Z! Congrats to you both… Now, in order to “rewind,” you just push a button called: “Open.” Here’s hoping you’ll take a peek, soon, at the Turtles…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/27 at 05:21 PM

That’s funny, Joe. I almost made a cigarette comment, too.

Helga, what can you tell us about this Australian zillionaire, Packer, who just died?

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 05:22 PM

Hi Joe, Helga, MickeyZ, JOS, & John,

People act like scum much of the time, I think, but of the majority who act like scum, only a minority are truly scummy at heart.

I try not to let it cloud my impressions of people and do thoroughly enjoy to see good deeds done - no matter how small. Somebody let me nto traffic in front of them on xmas eve...I thought it was pretty civil given the popular tendencies during shopping frenzies. Very insignificant kindness, but acts like this are part of what makes up a good day: civil agreement among strangers.

John - re: Ireland. None of the discussion was had as a complete and inclusive critique - I think this was implied by the context. My experience of Ireland is not really the point of any discussion, but I have lived there and done a good deal of reading in previous years on the topic. There are many facets of the Irish Independance that have morphed into both good and bad ... a diaspora of a social issues if you will (Mudge - Wordsmith - I think you could come up with the correct word for me to use instead of diaspora - ??).
Many violent acts have been perpetrated over the years both by loyalists and republicans from various factions. Both the Irish and British governments have been manipulative in their treatment of the north. There are also many northerners who’d prefer a united Ireland but who don’t want to give up their health care coverage! I don’t think Ireland (north or south, east or west) is homogenous...and said as much in an earlier comment on the topic.

My point rambling here is simply that I was not attempting to portray a romantic vision but rather attempting to find what might’ve contributed to the success of the Uprising when it had been attempted continuously for so many centuries before and failed. The conversation grew from there…

So...if you’d like to add more ideas to the conversation, I’ll be “looking” forward to it.

MZ - welcome to the digital age, I’m glad you didn’t wait as long to get a computer ;)

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 05:58 PM

oops - overlooked Sylvia Townsend Warner...I’d never heard of her but picked up the book in the bargain bin and thought it appeared just quirky enough to suit my preferences. Rather lengthy preface...doubtless authored by a professor...but she does seem to have led a rather melancholy life by it’s account.

And now I’m pretty sure that the odd minister in my book will indeed die. Thanks a lot!! But then he’s not set down roots really - so - the unfolding drama remains a mystery for now!

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 06:12 PM

Joe re 36 - that’s a fine point about what we accept as truth and some gut instinct we have for the people who are telling straight next to those who have an agenda / are looking at the matter from a significantly different view. Truth is an individual quality, and yet there is the idea that each of us reacts as though a bell has been rung in our souls when we hear the truth - meaning that truth can’t be universal, I suppose, only personal.

MZ - enjoy the DVD player. Have you seen Amadeus? It’s the first film I bought when I got a DVD player, and frankly I’d be amazed if you didn’t find it wondrous & moving; truly what digital quality is meant for.

Posts 38 & 39 what be the cigarette talk? Five days without a ciggie over here.

Mudge - finally got round to checking out that Dennis Cooper site. Writing wise, unfortunately only a small extract of Sluts was available, but what I saw I enjoyed, especially as I haven’t read anything too far off my regular map for a while. Can you give me any good Bresson titles to check out? I love it when a writer (or artist of any kind) has an overpowering reaction to another person’s work, but I do not know this film maker, so any hints or tips, much appreciated.

Amelopsis re 40 - I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about a universal view of the country in the 1916 uprising as opposed to revolutionary acts before & after that time.

This is only on the Catholic side, of course, but there was more unity then (from what I can see) than there has been since. Squabbling over acceptable treatises etc has been a curse since the 1920s in Republican politics, but that was only since the Catholics thought they may get somewhere. I don’t doubt the spirit of a free Ireland drove more people together in those years than had been achieved in four centuries of oppression prior to that point (or is it five? Too late in the day to get these things right)

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 06:35 PM

Mickey, you think YOU’ve been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century? Well my mom bought me an iPod the other day… damn thing has no buttons! It seems to run entirely by telepathy, must be why the headphones must be jammed so far into the ears. Crazy nonsense. As rebellion, I’ve only listened to stuff from the 70s-80s, maybe 60s. Up now, the Lennon Legend album for my trip from Bkln Hts to upper west side… please, my last trip to the vet.

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/27 at 06:52 PM

“lurking” is an interesting choice, as it implies sneakiness, and other negative connotations. But, your site, so, I must take it. However, I’ll also have to let others that use this computer that their reading is viewed as lurking. At the very least, we all appreciate the heads up.

My questions stem mostly from this point:

“leaving aside for the moment the entire mess that still is ‘the North’; I wonder if this is not largely because there was a single people united for a single cause. While there are many nuances to the Irish culture throughout the small island, essentially they had little differences amongst themselves, thereby making it easier to unite for the purposes of independance”.

Ireland cannot be viewed as something autonomous, or even agreed upon, at anytime before, during or after the rising. What country or group can be viewed in such a way?

In light of your last comments, I don’t understand the meanings of the paragraph I quoted. What exactly was meant by “there was a single people united for a single cause” or “essentially they had little differences amongst themselves”?

If the numbers of a group have such important implications, then why not explain?
For example,
“I will suggest that perhaps humans do everything “best” in smaller groups. We evolved in tribes or clans and have since subjected this Stone Age brain of ours to a Space Age society. Under such conditions, it’s difficult to imagine something as complex as social revolution going smoothly”

What (approximate) number determines a tribe or clan? When did Space Age society develop? Were social revolutions also “not smooth” in tribal and clan groups?

If numbers are given less influence, you could compare similarities between a family group where there is domestic abuse, and say, a public school that distributes violent teachings, a media system, etc, etc. I just can’t follow the argument that tribes and clans are some utopian arrangement, just by their numbers.

Posted by john on from 12/27 at 06:56 PM

John, there’s some good & telling points there.

Let’s look at it this way - unifying factors. Say there’s two broad divisions / sects in your society; and the numbers go from the locally appreciable few hundred into a national toll of 1 m / 1.5 m. One sect is treated very differently to the other, let’s say, but both groups have harsh complaints.

You’re a Protestant and a relative of yours was injured in an act of paramilitary violence. You’re a Catholic and one of your family was savagely beaten in police custody because of an “outrage” they were not involved in.

Naturally, a well of fiery hatred is the likely reaction in both cases.

I have no idea what constitutes a clan or tribe, or how the advent of the Space age influences this. Surely the Ireland issues are the simple questions of human boundary mixes with needs for security or revenge?

I don’t see that “lurking” was chosen for any insidious connotation, more that a number of people at this site prefer to read rather than contribute, perhaps due to lack of confidence or whatever, however badly founded this crisis of confidence may be.

I do believe that those who want a say are more than welcome and should not “lurk” in the shadows fearing ridicule, lack of acceptance or whatever. I’ve been “expendable” for less than a fortnight and the good people here are so welcoming that I feel like part of the furniture (not just because certain people like balancing drinks on my head). Tuck in, amigo.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 07:15 PM

Only have a minute, but John: I guess “lurking” does have a negative connotation...but that’s not how I meant it. Chalk it up to my relative inexperience on the Web and please know that no offense was intended and I’m happy to learn more about Ireland from you. Welcome to the site.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 07:41 PM

Chris - I’ve quit smoking dozens of times… finally, it occurred to me that I enjoy smoking, and I quit quitting…
Perhaps some of that decision has arisen because the world has decided that I WILL quit smoking, or else…
About truth -
I don’t know how else to approach it. I consistently read critiques of “Leftist Logic,” or “Leftist Scholarship,” and I think: As opposed to what, some consensus of truth? Some certainty, somewhere? Who is the supreme authority, and why? Pondering such questions invariably bring the thinker back to himself or herself as the ultimate arbiter.

John:
Welcome back.
Lurker is a term one encounters almost everywhere, throughout the web. It refers, non-judgmentally, to folks who visit, read, and go away, without leaving a note. It’s an almost universally applied label… You’re right, though, in the real world, ‘lurker’ is a bit of creepy name…

As I know nothing about Ireland - (I’m mostly Irish, and I refuse to “BE” Irish. I profoundly dislike such things...) - I can’t comment on the discussion. However, present a thesis, of sorts, and we’ll all blab about it & figure out where we stand or fall…
You’re attempting to stand on the sidelines and critique the action. I get it, but you gotta leap into the game before we can actually “play” together. What do you think is true? Why do you think so?

Mickey - I was just watching Democracy Now. They talked to a bunch of bike-riders involved in the group rides -"Critical Mass” / “Time’s Up?” rides? The riders have been harassed, arrested, even beaten up by the police, essentially for riding bikes throughout NY, in relatively large groups. One of the bikers remarked that, of course the city was willing to spend enormous amounts of money to shut them down… after all, look what they did to the “community gardens.”
They showed a community garden in a vacant lot/lots somewhere in the City, and the authorities were tearing it apart. They even had a huge “steam-shovel” digging out the offending vegetables…
Do you know anything about this “community garden?” The biker simply said: “It really frightens them to see people developing any sort of community.”

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/27 at 08:13 PM

I’m back sooner than expected. Hello everyone. If I neglected replying to someone, please forgive me. I’m feeling scattered today.

Joe: NYC is home to many amazing community gardens (including one in Astoria) and during the Guiliani regime, some of them were bulldozed to make way for real estate development. It’s an ongoing battle and I will try to find some links to share. As for bike activists, I’ll leave that to James from Hell’s Kitchen. Besides owning an iPod, he’s involved in such rabble-rousing and was arrested not too long ago.

John: I have a longer reply coming soon.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 08:17 PM

Joe: http://www.greenguerillas.org
http://www.notbored.org/gardens.html

John: Let me first clarify that I never said nor implied I was speaking in utopian terms. The word “best” appearing in my sentence about group size was simply due to the fact that it was my “captcha” word and it is a “strong” Expendable tradition to do our best to use the captcha word in our comments. That’s the kind of crew we are.

As for your specific questions, it’s generally believed that humans evolved to live in clans (mostly extended families) of roughly 60. So, although I was not attempting a definitive response, I guess 60 would work as an answer. In such a clan, the fact that everyone knew everyone would result in some self-policing, so to speak. I don’t know enough about such societies to comment on the prevalence of domestic abuse or violent teachings or what would pass as social revolution.

You ask when Space Age society developed. There is no single answer, of course, but I guess as our societies grew and we became surrounded by more and more and more strangers, things started to change. Transcontinental travel, artificial light, dietary changes, etc...right up to the TV, cell phone, Internet, etc.—all add up to monumental changes at a relatively rapid rate (especially when one considers that human biological evolution has not made even one iota of adjustment during the same time period).

Some of my influences were mentioned here: http://tinyurl.com/aacbe

In the end, John, let me clarify: I’m not declaring any of the above as anything more than mere personal musings. The more you lurk here (just kidding), the more you’ll recognize my style. I make the main posts and dash in a comment when I can...but I’m here to listen and learn and enjoy the sense of community like everyone else. Cheers…

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 08:25 PM

Joe - I love smoking. I just don’t want to hand in my dinner plate before I’ve done certain things. If you have a copy of any masterpieces I may have written but forgotten to tell myself about, feel free to mention.

That said, & here’s one to remember ... “at school, they told me to never give up, so I still smoke ...” I did stand up a while back & that went down well. Blame the audience, I guess.

& it’s a strange shitty thing about politics that everyone wants to feel some possibility that their own view will, at some point, be the last one standing. Some sort of intellectual Clint Eastwood syndrome, doubtless caused by a lack of fibre or fat soluble vitamins in the diet.

Knackers. I agree with you about people making my decisions for me, though - #### ‘em. But that doesn’t mean you have to fall one side of the fence.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/27 at 08:28 PM

John, I can only say I’m no anthropologist and don’t pretend to be an expert. You do bring up interesting questions; let me do my best in the limited time I have this moment to explain myself more clearly, as after rereading your selected quotes I think some contextual detail on my part would help.

In the terms of ‘smaller’ group:
I was referencing Ireland’s population in relation to other nations.

In regards to the unity of a people for a cause:
Irish republican goals ultimately succeeded in a relatively large success for the supporters of an Irish Republic. This was a cause that moved enough people to act - despite the many other differences and problems that affected their lives. A time when a few leaders were embraced by enough of the representative population for them to achieve together the means to and end.

I was not intending to apply any other absolutes.

My interpretation of MZ’s reference to the Space age was that it was an analogy for the vast technology and information currently at our disposal; and the misuse to which that knowledge is often put, if not ignored.

JAmes: I thought Frank was back from the vet for good? More meds, and nothing more serious. BTW I’m relatively certain that Cranberry can also be beneficial for feline complaints of the urinary nature - if the doses are correct, pilling might be a useful maintenance consideration.

Amadeus - I really enjoy Mozart and that movie was really entertaining when it came out; I’ve had overload though. Maybe another few years but then it would be nice to hear it with these new whizbang stereo digital thingamawhatsits.
gotta “run”.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/27 at 08:35 PM

Hello fellow Expendables.

What an eveing in the Writer’s Group. Oh my god.

I have been, for three hours now, in the uncomfortable position of walking the talk. I discovered we have a kiddie-porn sex offender in our group. I have been wrestling with my revulsion, acting as a mediator, and finally issuing ukases regarding the man’s continued welcomeness in the group.

There is a lot more to this, but I am too freaked to do more than say, “EEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW” in a place where no one knows the guy and won’t scream at me for refusing to back down from defending his privilege to join a public group in a public place.

As much as I want to say, “Get away from me, you skeeve!” ICK. “Each” objection I could understand, and even mentioning it was guaranteed to inflame passions. But there are rules about these things, behavioral oddities do not constitute a reason to forbid someone from being in public with adults who can only be revolted, not threatened, by the behaviors.

But I sure as hell ain’t goin’ to his house for tea.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/27 at 10:05 PM

Wow, Mudge, that’s one of those situations where—in my imagination—I see myself on the “higher” ground and standing up for this man’s rights. However, since I’ve yet to be in the position you were in tonight, I simply do not know what I’d do. Speculation is easy. Walking the walk...well, you know…

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 10:13 PM

Thanks for the links, Mickey.
Interesting quote from Rudy J:
“If you live in an unrealistic world then you can say everything should be a community garden.”
Yup, that’s me - an unrealistic guy in an unrealistic world… Rudy, Bush, Chaney, Gore, Lieberman, Clinton - those folks live in the “Real World,” where innocent people have to be murdered, raped, tortured, starved, and allowed to die from easily curable diseases - all for oil, or some form of corporate greed. Jeez… I’m such a pie in the sky asshole…

Amelopsis, an evening visit - nice to see ya.
I think I might rent both “Amadeus” AND “Immortal Beloved,” sometime… get some Mozart & Beethoven… It’s been quite a long time, for me.
I, too, was a bit overdosed on Mozart after the movie came out.

On a side note: I was listening to Beethoven’s Ninth, the other night, and wondered, as I always seem to, about the German word: Freude. I assumed it meant “friend,” but couldn’t remember. Thus, I looked up Schiller’s “Ode to Joy,” so I could read the whole thing, again.
I found a site that talked, at length, about the poem, and it’s place in Beethoven’s masterpiece. It said that the poem was originally called “Ode to Freedom,” but that the politics of the day forced Schiller to change the word “Freedom,” to the word “Joy.”

Mudge, I think you did the right thing. We can’t forgive each other often enough, in my opinion… Of course, sometimes it’s very hard to remember that that’s what I believe…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/27 at 10:51 PM

Always a pleasure to hear from you before I sign off “here,” Joe. I haven’t had a chance to hook up the DVD yet but when I do, Immortal Beloved is an excellent idea.

G’Night, all.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/27 at 10:57 PM

Good choice, Mickey. You must have quite a “list” ahead of you. See you Wednesday, if I live… ( See, I’m trying to be more realistic! )

Hey, that’s Rudy “G,” isn’t it. Sorry. I used to think of him as Rudy “Jewels...”

Chris, as everyone “hear” has heard, I can blab on at incredible length about smoking. Let me just say that, if you’re convinced, in your head and heart, that smoking will force you to “hand in your plate early,” well, you’re certainly doing the right thing.
See ya soon, young feller…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/27 at 11:54 PM

Once again Mr. Mickey Z likes to portray himself as an admirer and ally of the First Nations Peoples, and yet where is all of the talk about reparations, about giving us our land back and going back home to yours? Like a good so-called “radical”, he prefers to sip his latee and rant on about how it’s the “government” oppressing native peoples, and that he, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with it. So I’m curious. How exactly do you justify that anyway, Mickey? Do not you really care about reparations for the dispossessed? Are you only pretending that you do? Or are you using some sort of “the ends justify the means” strategy wherein you continue occupying our land and wait until the “glorious social revolution”, and THEN you’ll give it back?

I’m honestly curious about this. I’m sorry if I spoiled your circlejerk of a white anarchist pride parade, but there are people in this country with real problems. Are you going to pass off your responsibilities like every white boy who brushes off affirmative action by arrogantly whining, “But I wasn’t even born then! It’s not my fault!”. Every nation has debts it has to repay. Immigrants who come to this country are expected to pay tax dollars to the federal government which the government then uses to pay off money it might have borrowed long before the immigrants arrived. The principle works the same for land reform.

I noticed an earlier article in your archive in which you did an interview with a man very supportive of the land reform in Zimbabwe. Now, is it that you only support land reform to the indigenous when it’s happening “over there”, or are you prepared to stand by your principles?

Honest answer here.

Posted by Akeitay on from Newark, Nj 12/28 at 05:15 AM

Akeitay: I’d like to know what you can tell me about land rights for the Native communities in the USA. HEre in Canada, our First NAtions have come leaps & bounds empowering themselves and successfully demanding various land rights, hunting, fishing, etc. There are also a number of agreements for reparations for residential school abuses.

One thing I would suggest that you consider (here or elsewhere) is not to prejudge and assume about your fellow man/woman. It serves only to inform me about yourself and does little to serve your discussion.
Patronising sarcasm is unappealing regardless of who’s dishing it. I think you’ll find (as I think Joe said previously) that most of us here would offer you a welcoming attitude for any discussion of the issues you might want to put forth.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 08:41 AM

in reply..
“it’s generally believed that humans evolved to live in clans (mostly extended families) of roughly 60”

To play devil’s advocate, how does this method of thinking differ from a social conservative who watches “March of the Penguins” and says that the “traditional family” is the most natural? You’re attempting to claim some “highest form”, or “natural state” of human existence, as do social conservatives in their argument. I don’t know of any research that has claimed this, so I’m not convinced that it is generally believed. Also, social relations of any kind should be under constant negotiation. This is why I’d shy away from any natural starting, or end, point.

“In such a clan, the fact that everyone knew everyone would result in some self-policing, so to speak.”

This is a major problem with your argument. By making abstract assertions, I don’t you can make practical conclusions. Ok, it’s self-policing, but in what way? Who benefits, who suffers, etc.
In other words, you’re ignoring under what terms self policing takes place. Instead, you’re only discussing very general terms.

“I guess as our societies grew and we became surrounded by more and more and more strangers, things started to change.”

It’s hard to imagine any period when change did not occur. And, as change can either be productive or destructive, I think it’s best to analyze change through one issue at a time. Many goods/services can be called “technology”, and there are many that are very useful.

As to the discussion of Ireland:
“Irish republican goals ultimately succeeded in a relatively large success for the supporters of an Irish Republic”

This is still relying heavily on romantic notions of history. The Irish Republic serves some a lot more than it serves others. By making statements like the one above, it erases these very significant differences. To provide just one example, look at the issue of women’s rights at the time. (and now). It has also been progressive in certain ways, so I wouldn’t label it as a “large failure” either.

from these posts, rather than put forward a theory, I am just pointing out that there are a lot of terms used that seem to be too general, and assume too much.

I’d also apply the same standards to arguments on the left and the right. So, one post that says “your circlejerk of a white anarchist pride parade” contains very little in terms of useful description. The “going back home to yours” shares a lot of ground with other anti-immigrant belief, which I think should open it up to criticism, or after considering its strength of argument, just leave it ignored.

I also disagree with points that all humans are so terrible. I think if you took a step outside of your situation, those comments would begin to feel more ridiculous.

Posted by john on from 12/28 at 04:08 PM