Mickey Z

Cool Observer

Wednesday, December 28, 2005

"You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the Revolution"

Posted by Mickey Z on 12/28 at 07:24 AM

Hey-- off to work, great post today, fascinating stuff. Just a quick note to confirm that yes, Frank does seem to be out of the woods with the whole bladder obstruction issues now. Back from his last stay at the vets, not I can give him medication w/o his needing to be monitored.

Hoo-ray, and thanks again, everybody.

In case I don’t have much time later, re: the critical mass/bicycling issues, check out http://www.times-up.org about such rides here, and http://www.transalt.org for other bike/ped/anti-car activism. I was arrested the Sunday before the RNC in a meaningless show of force by Bloomberg’s police state, spent a day and night in jail, complete waste of time and money.

Later…

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/28 at 07:51 AM

Morning - busier day for me today, but this topic is interesting. Boxing day in Toronto was marked by the shooting of 6 people in the middle of downton at around 5pm. A 15yr old girl died.
This may not be all that odd for major US cities, but it is some pretty unusual activity for us here.
The discussion in the mainstream of how to address the mounting gun violence has predictably included tougher sentencing; while th other end wants more social programmes. The only thing agreed upon is that ‘something’ be done ASAP before another mother’s “son” is killed. (mostly black youth involved with the gun violence so far) I’ll be checking out all the links a little later and looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 08:13 AM

“If we create a society in which mutual aid, solidarity and cooperation are developed, all institutional forms of constraint will be rendered superfluous.”

Uh-huh.

You did solicit a “reaction”.

MZ, yes we have had a conversation about the intrinsic good or absence thereof in people’s hearts. It is a basic orientation issue, and neither side has, so far, conceded an inch. Given the topics we all discus here, it will recrudesce more than once. I don’t feel heatedly angrily passionate about this, and it doesn’t seem to me on the outside looking in that you do either. But what can make this fundamental difference in world-view work in our favor, instead of sweeping it under the rug in the “agree to disagree” collection of dust-bunnies?

Take, f/ex, prisons. Life without them sounds fine. Except...there are people I don’t want to have walking free. There are bad people in the world, who do bad things for bad reasons and won’t stop until or unless they’re stopped. So, in a future prisonless world, what do we do when we run up against a (rare, by that time) truly irredeemable soul?

In today’s world, as I have mentioned before, I write to prisoners. Their conditions aren’t good. They’re not angels, they committed some very nasty acts to get where they are; they are largely tossed aside by family and what passed for friends. I write to them not in the expectation that hearing from me will change their hearts, but because absent hearing from SOMEone unimprisoned there is only a vanishingly small chance they’ll see any reason at all not to commit more crimes on release.

I hear a lot about prison life. Some of it’s BS they make up in order to hustle money out of me (been at this awhile, fairly hard to fool), but some themes are consistent and not worth making up. It’s not a punishment. It’s not a rehabilitation. It’s an employment scheme, and one that’s self-reinforcing. The reason for the prison to exist is the prisoner; we need to keep people who are good candidates for prison employed in some non-criminal way, so we need lots of prisoners to guard and supervise; let’s make mandatory sentencing laws and keep all possible means of education and training out of reach of MOST of the prison population, but make sure some can get it; shake’n’bake, voila, today’s lousy situation.

I have no solutions. Anyone?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 09:21 AM

James, many good pees in Frank’s future. I’m glad it’s looking so bright for his urinary health.

Hi, Amelopsis! Busy or no, it’s nice to see you around and about today, as always.

Hi Joe, from last night. Looks to me like the whole West Coast is gettin’ the rain I need desperately. We’re a foot behind for 2005, and the wild-fires are proof that this isn’t a pretty situation. Could you run outside and aim those clouds south-southeasterly, please? Thanks, I owe ya one.

MZ from last night: Walking the talk is HARD. What am I supposed to do about this now? I’ve been confessed to. I’ve had, according to the promptings of conscience, to defend someone who’s done something indefensible. I take no comfort whatever from the fact that he’s not behaved predatorially, because I fall into the category of people who mentally append “yet” to the end of that sentence.

The oft-abused Christian adage “love the sinner, hate the sin” really comes alive for me in these circumstances. A human being is no less human for having this...wiring problem, I guess. I can’t see demanding or even suggesting that he leave the group, and he’s got some talent for off-beat humor. I don’t like being in the position of being his friend in the group’s eyes, because I am completely repulsed by his deeds. (Even the idea of possessing that stuff is enough to make me urp.) Yet I can’t ignore him and remain true to my principles.

Oh sigh. Much wrestling to do, I “fear”.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 09:39 AM

Mudge! That is a very uneviable situation you’re in. I agree with, and commend your actions. I have no idea if I’d be able to pull it off if I were in your shoes, but I’d like to hope I could; but I’m not convinced.
I think it’s quite understandable to want to dispel the perception that you’re his friend rather than just loyal to your principles.
I wonder what this member of your group feels about YOUR predicament now, since it seems your situations have become somewhat entwined? Maybe your writers group has no choice but to host a social discussion on the matter. EEESSSSHHH - I do not envy you.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 09:50 AM

Mudge, good luck with that writing group mess; worst I’ve had to deal with is ignoring women I’ve had crushes on in such groups. Frank’ll wiz like a racehorse to in tribute tonight to you and all those meditating cats in Canada.

But um, ‘recrudesce’? I have to go look it up later. And I can still use further whammy up here… “and” how.

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/28 at 10:05 AM

Joe: from last night’s discussion I missed about Ode to Joy...the words ‘peace’ and ‘joy’ (or ‘happiness’, it’s one of those words where the context determines the specific definition for translation) are respectively ‘Friede’ and ‘Freude’ so they could have been changed after the composition was finished I suppose. I’d never heard that before and it makes me want to more about the circumstances.

Where are all the other “girls” today?

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 10:21 AM

Yes, Amelopsis, I fear a discussion is what we need. I can’t say I look forward to it. I know I’ll have to moderate (excellent word in this case) the discussion.

I didn’t want to know this. I suspect another member of the group knows it from before I found out, based on behavior I didn’t understand before.

And then, of course, there’s my position. No, I don’t imagine for a moment he’s thoguht about what this does to me vis-a-vis the group, or even in my own conscience. Were he not a convicted sex offender, I’d turn him in without a second thought or a blink of hesitation. That job being done for me, I have to craft some response to this that allows me to be easy with myself.

Thanks for the kind words, and I’ll keep wrestling with my inner demons of destruction.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 10:31 AM

James #6: recrudesce, verb (intransitive). To revive; to be renewed. 2. To become sore or raw again. [Twentieth Century Dictionary (Unabridged), Publisher’s Guild. NYC, 1939.]

Sense #2 is the one I’m using. It’s an underused word, especially useful for stuff like this. Rashes recrudesce; allergic reactions recrudesce; those limited uses are reasonably common. In the wider world, I think of poverty as a recrudescent plague upon the Body Politic, likewise recrudescent racism, sexism, homophobia, etc etc.

“May” I count the Expendables in on a campaign to repopularize “Recrudece” and its grammatical kin?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 10:44 AM

haha

hello again everyone. i’ve just been on a tubthumping rant. geldof is at it again. http://tinyurl.com/bbtuz

it is a tough one on the prisons thing. the hope is that much less people would be in prison. if someone responds to that by saying that there are no guarantees about that, all that has to be said is that there are more prisons now than ever before so something is going wrong somewhere. if things go on the way they are there is a guarantee that far to many people will be in prison.

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/28 at 11:19 AM

So much to respond to.

Amelopsis: You’re right. We need more girls at this party. For now, I’m channeling my feminine side. Does that help?

James: You sound optimistic about Frank. Excellent.

Mudge, you ask: So, in a future prisonless world, what do we do when we run up against a (rare, by that time) truly irredeemable soul? That’s precisely what I’m wondering and partly what my friend was asking when our discussion began. He also “asked” how a progressive-minded soul could work in a prison...even in a future, more egalitarian society.

Mudge, you also ask (re: another topic): But what can make this fundamental difference in world-view work in our favor, instead of sweeping it under the rug in the “agree to disagree” collection of dust-bunnies?

I am 100% open to suggestion.

Michael: I agree: something is going wrong somewhere. I’ll now go check out your thumping.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 11:21 AM

have to go for now but just been checking thru some of the last couple of days.

Mickey i wanted to give you some facts....

young sloths take a while to figure out the being a sloth thing and frequently mistake their own arms for branches and fall to the ground.

the UK is the country most often challenged at the european court of human rights and the european court of justice (not the same thing)

when romanian dictator nicolai ceaucescu and his wife were executed on christmas day http://tinyurl.com/bwon3 it was rumoured that the only debate in the kangaroo court was whether they would be allowed to hold hands at the firing squad.

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/28 at 11:30 AM

Thanks, Michael. I just learned three new facts. Our discussions often have so little to do with my original posts, I had forgotten I asked everyone for obscure facts.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 11:33 AM

Hey everyone,
Sorry if I wasn’t allowed back in the Cool Observatory til my b’day Mr Z, but I’ve got catching up to do and wanted to get a good start.

I got a replica “Kill Bill” sword for christmas, woohoo! I’m not planning to decapitate any unfortunate peasants, just pose a bit (I’m a terrible poseur when there aren’t any mirrors around.)

Mudge, I’ll try and use recrudesce at least once in a conversation.

Posted by Mew on from England 12/28 at 11:37 AM

Michael #10: Good to see you!

From the link: “Britain has agreed to spend 0.7% of its gross national income on aid by 2013.” And this is an increase?! Scandalous. Rich nations should be humiliated that this mingy amount is an INCREASE.

MZ #11: Oh dear, I was hoping you’d have some ideas. I guess we’re best advised to keep engaging, not avoiding or ignoring, the fundamentals and see where discussion takes us. The hard way, in other words. Drat! Apply your Expendable creativity to this issue of optimism-vs-pessimism working for the greater good, Expendables all!

Prisons and “justice” are always thorny issues, MZ, and always will be for any regime good or bad. I agree with you an Michael, the way things are is seriously broken and flawed thinking is what got us here. I think a good first step is to get the bloody bedamned Puritans off the national conversation because all they do is ram their sick, twisted (im)morals down the collective throat of society. Oh dear, there went my tolerance merit badge.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 11:40 AM

Very recrudesce of you, Mew, to show up early.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 11:42 AM

mudge - i think the US is much less of percentage than that. i thought it was about 0.28 but one website i just checked said it is 0.14. i would need to look harder for a proper answer.

and yes. it is disgraceful. japan usually tops the list as the most generous but that has declined recently

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/28 at 11:47 AM

Amelopsis #7: Hey, I haven’t seen RMJ around anywhere near enough lately...? And what of the vaunted increase in Michele Z’s participation here...? I have no inkling of the genders of the Initials Crowd, and figure it’s just not my business so I don’t ask.

Mew #14: Great! Any reuse of “recrudesce” or kin is good...though be prepared for blank-to-hostile stares. Kierkegaard said, 160 years ago, that anything not average would soon and evermore be ridiculed and resented (I am sooooo compressing and paraphrasing The Present Age, but needs must when the Devil drives, and that bastard is the major carter of our day).

Sally forth and engage the lists of the listless, Mew my soon-to-be elder!

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 11:52 AM

MZ #16: “recrudescent” silly vegan.

Michael #17: I am not casting stones randomly, I cast that one at all the rich nations; the USA is so fucked up in its priorities I can’t begin to address them all. We spend many, many billions paying back debts from our military’s credit-card binges. The predatory banks shold be “encouraged” to spend the USA debt repayments on some of the anti-poverty initiatives that need doing around the world, and NOT AS LOANS but as dues paid for being able to predate the herds of rich idiots.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 11:59 AM

Howdy Expendables,

Why can’t we have folks like Angela Davis in charge of the show?

She’s a charter member of my Cool People’s “club”....

Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 12/28 at 12:11 PM

I’d like to recrudesce the prison discussion:

Here in Canada “Correctional Facilities” are the domain of the federal government.
Since we’re posed with the problem of recidivism (sp?) and a growing rate of incarceration; perhaps revisiting the term “correctional” would be a good place to start.
I think a key to reducing both crime and rates of incarceration would be to examine and(vastly) improve the correctional programmes which the system offers.

Posted by Amelopsis on from canada 12/28 at 12:16 PM

Hello Everyone...and welcome, Hawk. You’re looking very recrudescent today.

To follow Amelopsis’ point, I’d agree the short-term, first step in a long journey approach would be a move from warehousing humans to rehabilitating them. In addition, it might help to re-visit how violent crime is defined, the concept of mandatory sentencing, three strikes laws, and an emphasis shift from crime in the streets to crime in the suites (as Nader puts it). To name but a few proposals.

Long term? Well, it leads us “all” back to my original post. In a more equitable society (no need to burden it with a label like anarchist), would prisons exist? If so, what would they be like and who would work there? If not, how would society deal with those who commit criminal acts?

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 12:40 PM

And Hawk, I remember once being asked if I thought women would run the U.S. differently. I replied: “That depends if it’s M. Albright or Angela Davis.”

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 12:45 PM

Hi everyone....I have been scanning the comments here but have not have time to carefully read them so if I make stupid comments please bear with me.
Mudge, about your dilemma with the questionable person in your group. Is he still involved in pursuing his harmful activities or is that something in his distant past?

About prisons...# 11 by Mickey...what about those who endanger others. That is something I have thought about a lot. What about a drunk or reckless driver who continues to injure, kill, or endanger others even after the loss of his driver’s license and many violations. Sometimes there is no alternative to imprisonment. The real problem is that there are too many innocent in prison and also that prisons are needlessly cruel. But yes, I firmly believe in the need for prisons. Where else would we put those who start preemptive, illegal wars after they are found guilty in War Crimes Trials ?

On a lighter note, on Saturday nite we will all have an extra leap-second. Maybe a good way to spend that extra time would be to list all of the great accomplishments of the USA in 2005...there would still be time left after making the list.

Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 12/28 at 12:46 PM

Sounds good, Amelopsis. I am, however, jaded around the issue of prisons. I think that, in the U.S. at least, prisons are a growth industry, utilizing endless slave labor made possible by the War on Drugs and the War on the Poor. Prisons exist as an institution of repression, and the idea of “corrections” is just another Orwellian distraction from what’s really going on.

When formal slavery was abolished, the racist elite needed to figure out a way to recoup their losses. Modern prisons are a big part of their solution. There never was a serious impetus to “rehabilitate” prisoners, despite good work done by well-meaning functionaries here and there.

Short of revolution, it’s hard to imagine serious change in this area. Prisons are too ingrained in the globalist plan for our lives; the Powers That Be need prisons in order to retain their stranglehold.

Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 12/28 at 12:50 PM

Mickey: good line re: Albright vs. Angela. You inspired me to put up a little post on Angela, who has always been one of my true heroes.

Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 12/28 at 12:53 PM

Celebrities ‘Hijacked’ Poverty Campaign, Say Furious Charities: http://tinyurl.com/7ku28

the Time to Make the Donuts Guy died, read about the irony of him staring in the donut commercial, or maybe it’s not ironic: http://tinyurl.com/b3qde

i just read an article in the progressive magazine about some fundamentalist anti-choice groups fighting to have birth control banned, other anti-choice fundamentalist groups disagree. there’s someone to the right of Hitler.

from yesterday: what happened to those Caravaggio’s? here’s one:

another:

and another:

http://www.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/lunadivelluto/Narcissus(Caravaggio,_1598-99,_Rome).1.JPG

Posted by tm on from in a grove 12/28 at 01:19 PM

http://tinyurl.com/84lw2

Posted by tm on from in a grove 12/28 at 01:22 PM

Wow folks, some seriously weighty issues today.

To start with the most important, I am very happy to recrudesce usage of an overlooked word, & wonder if an Expendable effort could be made with a favourite word of mine: steatopygious (means fat assed). A wonderful word to use in a complimentary tone to irritating, not over bright colleagues or (especially) superiors.

“Hey, someone’s looking steatopygious. Been working out?”

So much has been said about prison, I’m sure you know many of the quotes about how prison is a benchmark of a society’s humanity, that they are breeding grounds for crime etc. Well, given the conditions, cost & undeniable class circumstances in imprisonment, I don’t see how anyone could claim there is a fair or useful system in place either in the US or UK.

An alternative would have to be some form of education, in my view - is this very idealistic? Everyone can achieve something in education, and case workers can be excellent judges of effort & potential. Even if the prisoners are simply encouraged to express themselves in some form; it’s non violent & hopefully will give them something that is theirs & can’t be threatened.

Certainly present standards are just plain barbaric & serve as a guarantee that those in jail will reoffend ... the squalor naturally hardens anti social impulses, & as for making contacts & getting good ideas - well, the major drug crimes in England in the 70s & 80s were due to realy, heavy criminals getting good ideas from guys doing shorter sentences for (then) minor crimes of dealing; far more lucrative & voila, look at the situation.

In terms of the whys, for my money Hawk got it bang on in post 25.

Also, in terms of reform, why not examine the court system ? The law is inflexible in many cases, the juries often biased (the media coverage of certain crimes & how prisoners are treated is dumb & wrong) & defending lawyers underpaid. & that asshole Blair is constantly trying to reduce the right to trial by jury - hey, we’ve only had it for 950 years, why would that matter?

RMJ, I will make plans for my extra second & enjoy it to the full. A good book perhaps?

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/28 at 01:23 PM

RMJ #24: Howdy, welcome, glad you’re here! About my kiddie-pornifyin’ acquaintance: A thing of the past, not so distant. It’s all in 2002. I wonder if, afforded access to a computer again, the beahviors would recrudesce.

My leap-second will be spent snoring.

tm #27: Ahhhh...Salome looks so grumpy for a woman who’s just achieved her dream, no? And the cheats in the second painting, well, Caravaggio could have been one of those lads himself, per the court records of the time.

Hawk #25: The campaign to enslave the bulk of humanity’s been ongoing for all of time. There are pockets of failure to accomplish the goal, pockets of resistance, but none are long-lived or particularly successful.

Grim stuff.

Chris #29: “An alternative would have to be some form of education, in my view - is this very idealistic? Everyone can achieve something in education, and case workers can be excellent judges of effort & potential. Even if the prisoners are simply encouraged to express themselves in some form; it’s non violent & hopefully will give them something that is theirs & can’t be threatened.”

It’s a place to start....

MZ #22: “In a more equitable society (no need to burden it with a label like anarchist), would prisons exist?” Yes.
“If so, what would they be like and who would work there?” They’d be grim, and people who would, under very slightly different circumstances, be in them.
“If not, how would society deal with those who commit criminal acts?” Kill ‘em on the spot.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 02:30 PM

Whew! Weighty matters at the Zoutpost, today.
My babble problem is recrudescing, even as I type.

Amelopsis - great posts today, and last night / this morning…

Rosemarie - Great to see you, my friend. Welcome back.

Prisons:
Well, we’ll want to keep truly dangerous people from hurting other folks. Can we accomplish this without tossing folks into vast dumpsters? I bet we can.

In the old days, people didn’t send sick relatives and friends off to those great festering warehouses we call “hospitals.” They took care of their own, and perhaps various “experts,” - witch doctors, doctors, shamen (spelling?), psychics, herbalists, healers, etc., would visit the house to help & offer advice.

In communities not constantly overwhelmed by the savage demands of capital, the state, and the corporation, there may be lots of free time and lots of creative energy available to work with these troubled people.

Doubtless, there will be huge problems, until most of the truly virulent manifestations of “civilization,” begin to wear off…
Certain offenders will require fairly constant supervision, and, people will have to figure out the best way to do that - one person at a time, one case at a time, one day at a time… one community / group at a time. Huge mistakes will be made, and there will be violence and great injustices, no doubt - from the “criminal” side, and from the group / community side.

We’ll all be learning how to be truly human - and learning how to care for ourselves as a group, without lashing out in horror and rage at those who hurt, frighten or offend us.

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/28 at 02:39 PM

Yes, James, you are spot-on: another ‘great post, fascinating stuff’. Thanks, Mickey, and hi to all of you expendables. Weather forecast for Daylesford, Australia for Thursday 29 December: up to 93F - too hot for yours truly!

Re crime: I for one think that there will be crime in every society no matter how it is organised, I’m afraid.
And I really like Camus’ saying - am going to read a biography of him once I have finished Robert Fisk’s latest book.

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/28 at 03:15 PM

Rosemarie, Mew, Hawk, tm: nice to see you all today.

We’ll all be learning how to be truly human - and learning how to care for ourselves as a group, without lashing out in horror and rage at those who hurt, frighten or offend us.

Joe:(hi!) I think you’ve hit it here with this point. It seems to bring up the US and THEM predicament that is so often the issue with matters involving gov’t or authority.

This is why I think there must be a starting point of real correctional measures. Once we’ve gotten anywhere near mastering that aspect (we’ll be able to tell it’s working when the recidivism rate drops) then we can start to think of a less enormous system which as Hawk points out, is a growth industry looked at as a good investment by THEM and start looking at it as a good investment for US: society as a whole.

In the case of Mudge’s group member, how does a pedophile wrap up their sentence in 2 or 3 years? Was there any counselling involved or is society full of such offenders who’ve simply (I use the term lightly) done their time and now they’re out and about again? If so, in the cae of this sort of crime, I think it’s a waiting game before another victim is created.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 03:16 PM

And Michael, I used to like Bob Geldof (or Sir Bob Geldof, as he is often referred to these days) - now I’m going to click on your link ..

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/28 at 03:21 PM

And lastly: thanks for all those Caravaggios, tm! One of my favourite painters.

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/28 at 03:26 PM

Hello everyone (far too many to name). Michele and I are heading out so that means I’ll return later and will yet again make a futile attempt to catch up.

Au revoir...

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 03:42 PM

Amelopsis - yeah, I sure would like to alter things for those trapped inside. This country ( and, to an ever greater extent, Canada, it seems ) is in the clutches of hateful, brutal, vengeful creatures who seem to believe that tossing people into terrible, poisonous pits for decades is not sufficient punishment. They seek to contrive to add more deliberate methods of humiliation, torture and murder to the monstrous prison menu…
Mexico, an “inferior” nation to which the US constantly refers with great disdain, recently eliminated the death penalty, even as more and more people here are added to death row. Meanwhile, I write a few letters, or sign a few petitions, then leap up for a nice little snack, and a peek at some deliciously angry show on FSTV…
I admit, I don’t know what else to do, but I often feel like a useless idiot.

I found reference recently, at CounterPunch, to an old Johnny Cash album: “J.C. At San Quentin.” While there, he sang a song about the prison. Here’s one verse:

“San Quentin, may you rot and burn in hell.
May your walls fall and may I live to tell.
May all the world forget you ever stood.
And may all the world regret you did no good.”

Mew: Is it your birthday? Happy Birthday. It’s good to see you here, under any circumstances.

TM - what beautiful, beautiful paintings. Thank you. What a powerful, truly astonishing art is painting. The best stuff seems - impossible.

Mr. Mudge, Hawk, and Chris - I agree that prisons are a great source of cheap labor / slave labor. Capitalism is always on the prowl for opportunities to exploit. I hope to blab a bit more, later, about this stuff…
Mudge - I think you’ve done the right thing, thusfar.
I don’t know how to comment adequately on his crime / crimes. If there were 1,000 Army / Marine / Navy / Air Force officers, each responsible for the death or dismemberment of hundreds or even thousands of little children in Afghanistan or Iraq or Panama or Nicaragua or El Salvadore or Guatemala or Haiti or Timor or Diego Garcia or Vietnam or Korea or Tokyo or Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden…. they’d be welcomed warmly, entirely without a thought…
It wouldn’t even occur to the group to imagine that they needed to be forgiven for what they’ve done.

Hi Helga - good to see you, too.

Hi Mickey & Michele - y’all be careful out there!

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/28 at 05:05 PM

Hospitals are there for sick individuals. Prisons are there for sick societies. Neither should be the province of private capital to make a very private profit. This is exploiting the individuals and the society in both cases.
I think the first thing that needs to be done is to take control of both these institutions away from people who have a vested interest in exacerbating the problems and hand them over (back) to governments be they local, state or federal.

(Got a thumbs up from the Oracle - captcha word “great”!

Posted by Jim on from 12/28 at 05:07 PM

Joe, that Johnny Cash lyric is one of my favourites & especially apt with Stanley Williams’ recent execution at San Quentin. & a very good point about the nature of crime - the military crimes that are so sickeningly welcomed in our fawning, cretinous society are often far more damaging than those of people deemed far worse criminals.

Mudge - child sex crimes are the most repulsive & hardest to deal. It’s a commendable & worthy thing to champion such a person’s freedoms. It’s only when affording rights to the most questionable people that such values have any relevance, as with freedom of speech - it’s only a test when we truly disagree with the person whose rights to speak we uphold.

Are you doing the right thing? Unquestionably, in my book. Doesn’t being treated decently make it harder for a person to commit such a rank & heinous offence when they have been shown fairness? I would imagine so. I’ve never been drawn to such behaviour, but on the rare occasion when I have had to hold back violence it’s been other people valuing me which gave me an anchor for such inappropriate spurs action.

Maybe you’ve giving this man the grounding required for him to stay non predatory.

Also, having self expression validated is a step toward feelings of self worth - for someone who must have been shunned so much it could be a lifeline that prevents, or lessens, terrible introspection. I imagine it must be far easier to commit such terrible crimes as the ones in question when one feels truly isolated & cut off from other people.

It’s a fine thing you’ve done.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/28 at 05:54 PM

Jim re 38 - dead right! Privatising any social service is wholly fucked up & a backward step. We in Britain have Margaret Thatcher to point to should any example be needed, althoguh I do believe in the US those nice people at Pepsi provide pupils with textbooks ... awww! If that happens over here I may have to wear blinkers in my own classroom.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/28 at 05:56 PM

Hi Jim - welcome - it’s “great” that you’re here.
I agree that privatizing health care and “criminal care,” is itself, criminal. Of course, it was governments which turned such responsibilities over to the corporations, in the first place. As government always and only serves wealth and power, perhaps we’ll have to look to some relatively neutral “third party,” to administer such things, though I admit I can’t even imagine such an organization, off-hand. Even the Red-Cross and similar groups seem steeped in racism and dedicated to the service of the elites. Maybe the Salvation Army, but without the breakfast prayers…

Chris - yeah, it’s an amazing piece, eh? I REALLY dislike country music, generally, but I’ve always been impressed by Johnny Cash. I’d heard, and enjoyed songs like “Ring of Fire,” “The Big Battle,” and “Tennessee Flat-Top Box,” but it was “Folsom Prison Blues,” in 1968 that really turned my head around. It just amazed me, and does so, still. He may be a country-western guy, but in many ways he transcends all the categories. He’s simply - Johnny Cash.

Mudge:
I’m sending the rain your way as quickly and as passionately as I can…
We’ve got a little creek at the northern border of my little place. It almost drys up in the summer. The creek-bed is probably 10 feet below my land, but the water is rising with amazing speed. It looks like the Mississippi on crack, out there… wow. Some people downstream, I just heard, are pumping out their homes… Spooky.

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/28 at 07:10 PM

Amelopsis #33: No evidence of actual sexual contact, only porn on the ‘puter. Lots and lots of it, so he was distributing it. He didn’t appear in any of it, and as I said, no evidence of actual sex was ever found. Hence counseling, light prison time, no access to the Internet, but considered a low risk for reoffending.

Helga #35: Caravaggio is truly the first 20th-century painter...400 years early, sadly for him.

Jim #38: “Hospitals are there for sick individuals. Prisons are there for sick societies. Neither should be the province of private capital to make a very private profit. This is exploiting the individuals and the society in both cases.”

You’re my new hero. Simple, succinct, superb.

Chris #39: “It’s a fine thing you’ve done.”

Thank you. I’ve about worn a hole in my carpet from over-thinking this. I’m prone to that on these subjects.

My mother was the one who introduced me to sex when I was 13, after a three-year buildup, and this damaging behavior went on for two years before I could find a place in me that wasn’t numb and make it stop. I tend to overreact to child sexulal abuse, and I fear that I am always wrong about this...so I guess I overcompensate. I’m appreciative of the validation from you and Joe, and all the rest of the Expendables.

Joe #41: Oh yay! They’re pumping their houses out, and I went down to the creek by my house that’s normally full and it was bone dry. That’s VERY unusual. Wave the clouds on, fast!

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 08:01 PM

Mudge: Thank you for sharing this very personal information about yourself. It speaks mountainous volumes about your character that you find yourself able to defend the rights of this man in your group after learning of your own experience. I also think maybe you draw on the same strength today in dealing with this predicament, as you might have when you were 15. It’s only similar in that it really is a matter of principle. You seem to have it in abundance.

I don’t think it’s possible to over react to child sexual abuse of any sort. It damages people in an irreparable way and can taint relationships through their entire adult lives - this is not a thing to be taken lightly, you seem fortunate and well adjusted enough to have dealt with it; others don’t find that strength until it’s too late (if at all).
I don’t really understand when you say “and I fear that I am always wrong about this...so I guess I overcompensate”.
You don’t sound to me as though your own experiences with this are causing any undue reaction.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 08:21 PM

I figured I’d chime in on the topic of prisons, since I was the dumb-ass that brought it up. I like the idea of a completely free society, and agree that fixing problems for the long term requires systemic solutions as opposed to short term approaches rooted in coersion (ie. prisons). However, I’ve come to firmly believe that every great system or idea that requires broad integrity by its participants will be taken advantage of by a small minority. I think there will always be individuals who’ll see a system as an opportunity to extract from it, without giving back; or there will be people who’ll manipulate the rules for their own greed for money and/or power. Take for example the humane idea of communism that came to be promoted and perpetuated in many situations through violence (as Gandhi once pointed out). Or socialism being weakened by a poor work ethic. Or democracy being completely hijacked by unfettered, free market capitalism. It’s a damn shame if you ask me. And so I am not convinced that any system can perpetuate without some kind of deterent force (so as to prevent it from falling prey to those of low integrity). But maybe I’m wrong. And if I am, then great. I’m always looking for the brighter prospect.

But just for kicks, lets say that I am right. That somewhere down the line, while massive reforms are taking place, and incredibly insightful systemic solutions are being implemented, it becomes apparent that there are a small percentage of individuals who just don’t see the value in what people of a more humane mindset are trying to achieve. Let’s say, in this imagined situation, that it becomes necessary to implement some kind of enforcement program. For conversation’s sake, imagine the need for… say.. a hard-edged environmental preservation task force (oh I don’t know). In this case, would people of left-leaning perspective be capable of filling enforcement roles? To extend this idea, would we be able to exert control at times over individuals who… say.. want to exploit others, destroy the environment, hoard wealth, etc?

Often people from the right view those on the left as being unable to exert force within roles of authority, or view us as being unable to fill those roles in the first place. And so I wonder if the left could benefit from developing the capacity to “enforce”. Would it make for a more comprehensive voice from the left?

And again, within an ideal society in the future, if everyone has rock solid integrity, then none of this will need to be considered.

But what if there will be a need for “enforcement”? Solely for conversation’s sake… what if?

Posted by rich on from Astoria, NY 12/28 at 08:31 PM

Amelopsis #43: Kindness indeed to compliment character without first assassinating it! Thank you.

Shring personal information isn’t scary to me, especially, because the ugliest hurts and most vicious rendings of spirit in my family have some from kept secrets. I’d as soon not have any than have ugly, bad ones. I don’t really think of that as a principle, so much as a survival strategy!

I fear that, in cases of sexual abuse, I am wrong in my feelings of passionate haterd and violent need for retribution...I wasn’t the victim, I have to separate myself from that victim stance...so I think that I overcompensate by being TOO fair, going TOO far down the “hall” to make sure I am not heard while I yell and bellow my fury.

And I appreciate your kindness again in saying it speaks of my character that I defended this guy...I think principles are for the hard times, not the easy ones, and I worked HARD to build a set. That’s what I see as praiseworthy. Now that I’ve got ‘em, I think it’s sorta incumbent on me to use ‘em even when I don’t want to!

But thank you, I feel appreciated, and that’s a lovely way to feel!

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 08:35 PM

Rich #44: Enforcement requires absolute certainty that You Are Right, the Law Is Right, and All Is Fair.

I speak only for myself when I say that I am completely positive that I am Right, completely positive that all is NOT fair, and ambivalent on the law as it stands today.

In the “what if” world, enforcement will be required to make everything fair; the laws will, obviously, have to change; I will still be Right.

So, appoint me Imperial Grand Pooh-Bah in Charge of Everything, and all will be well! The other option, letting people who aren’t very smart have a voice in their own governance, makes me deeply uneasy. As they go, so must I, and that rankles severly.

Yours sincerely,
J. Stalin

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/28 at 08:44 PM

Dear Mr Imperial Grand Pooh-Bah

Not wishing to cast even the merest suspicion upon your mighty wonder, but I fear you may have gone so far with liberty that you have emerged the other side, through the crash barrier as it were, and now agree with that wonderful defender of the Murrican people Mr G W Bush, who also favours dictatorship.

Please cease & desist. It will be a grim day for all people when such ideas come well expressed.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/28 at 10:07 PM

PS only 361 shopping days til Xmas.

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/28 at 10:08 PM

Hello gang...and Rich, great to see you here. Sorry, but I’ve gotten home too late to do anything more than sign off. Hope this conversation continues. Rich brings up some provocative points.

G’night, all.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/28 at 10:55 PM

Dear Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah & good evening to All,

It has long been my heartfelt belief that The Utopian Imperium would work most smoothly for all concerned if I were to be the Empress in charge.

Now what do we do?

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/28 at 11:12 PM

Hello Rich… long time -

I doubt very much that we can “reform” our current systems… To an immense extent, I think, we’ll need to start again, from the beginning.
A virus, no matter what hat it wears, no matter what color it’s painted, remains a virus, and is forever at least potentially deadly.

Presently, and perhaps always - at least since the origins of “civilization” - property trumps all else. Virtually everything we might call sacred from a humanistic perspective, from the simple recognition of a friendly greeting, to the understanding that murder is wrong - everything takes a distant second to property. My feeling is that almost all crimes originate here, in the profound devaluation of everything human, and the near adoration of wealth and power…

This is disease and madness enshrined as truth, justice, beauty.

There’s an old saying about a full man not being able to understand a hungry man. I think the reverse might also be true - a hungry man can probably not understand a full man. We all hunger for justice, fairness, compassion, honesty, some significant measure of brotherhood, trust, mutual respect… It’s difficult, probably even impossible to imagine what life might be like in a world in which such personal qualities were considered more important than the accumulation of wealth, property, and power. How might we deal with behavioral anomalies in such a world?

Before that world can even reach the edge of the general consciousness, enormous and truly life-shattering events will have to occur. Few of us, methinks, will make it through such transitional times. Afterwards, if sanity begins to rule the day, what will the survivors of those great cataclysms be like? Would we even recognize them as of the same species if we didn’t pause to count arms, legs, eyes, ears and so on? I don’t know.

If there are folks about who at all resemble many of us here, Anarchy will still be the great goal, the holiest of holies. They’ll aspire to a freedom so grand and for so very long entirely unknown, that their plans may be all but unthinkable for those of us still mired in disease and violence and fear and madness…

During that time, there may well be a need to enforce certain community decisions. Such things can be handled with immense love, of this I’m certain. If, when my kids were young, they had run out into the street 1,000 times, I’d have chased them down and brought them back safely, without violence - to a safe place, where they were profoundly loved - 1,000 times… If they’d burned my house down, I’d have gone to bed that night - somewhere - angry and frightened, but grateful for their survival, filled with love for each of them, and ready to take on the awesome responsibility of parenthood again, tomorrow…

It’s this sort of world I long for, in my heart of hearts, when I think of how human beings might best deal with one another. I think of us as family, as one vast world of brothers and sisters, elders and children…
I long for a world in which you’re my brother - not as simile or metaphor but as the reality of my day to day life. If my brother commits murder, I don’t know what I’ll do - but I’ll love him and go far “beyond myself,” to treat him with enormous love, compassion, respect and kindness… I’ll begin there, and work through the “enforcement” process, one day at a time.

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/28 at 11:26 PM

Oddly enough, I just bought my wife Live from Folsom Prison. Country/Western is not my thing, but I listened to the entire CD and can say that I enjoyed it thoroughly. Cash connected with the folks in Folsom in an incredible way. A very human being sharing himself so that others can remember their own humanity. How’s that for a “change”?

Posted by Cart on from near Warshington DC 12/28 at 11:42 PM

Hi Cart! How are you? I’ve been wondering where you’d gone…

Yeah, the guy’s in his own category, isn’t he?
They ( The they ) sometimes refer to him as “The Man in Black.” Cool, you know? It’s like he’s Zorro, or something…
I’ve never heard the whole album, but it sure sounds good.
Here’s a little review from Jesse Walker, who, apparently, works at CounterPunch:

“I’m going to follow Jeff’s ( St.Claire ) example and list some of my favorite live albums.
1. Johnny Cash: Johnny Cash at San Quentin (Sony)

An album so incendiary it makes Rage Against the Machine look like Raffi. Near the start, Cash complains that the TV crews filming him have been telling him what to sing, where to stand, what to do. “They just don’t get it, man,” he says. “I’m here to do what you want me to, [the audience? - j.] and what I want to do.” Before long he’s practically inciting a riot with a song he wrote just for the prison audience—here’s a sample verse:

-San Quentin, may you rot and burn in hell.
-May your walls fall and may I live to tell.
-May all the world forget you ever stood.
-And may all the world regret you did no good.

It might not scan well on the page, but it’s got real power thundered from a jailhouse stage. He sings the whole song. He says: “If any of the guards are still speaking to me, could I have a glass of water?” And then he sings the damn thing again.”

Great to “run into you,” my friend. Come back soon, OK? You’ve been missed.
Please, be well…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/29 at 01:18 AM