Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Wednesday, January 04, 2006
"The future is an infinite succession of presents..."
Good Morning Mickey,
JOS, I hope this morning finds you well.
That’s a great Zinn exerpt, and , I’m with you!
It’s far from easy at times when people prattle in the most friendly and innocuous manner on a topic that they just want to use as small talk. I find that if I have nothing very personal invested in the person (work aquaintance or other such less than personal relationship) I struggle with wanting to get into a conversation to ‘set them straight’ so to speak, or at least enlighten them to a different perspective or facts. When in actuality they have no interest in hearing it and I often dont’ have the energy to sell it to them.
Well, there’s my scattered intropection for this morning.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 08:47 AM“Even when we don’t ‘win,’ there is fun and fulfillment in the fact that we have been involved, with other good people, in something worthwhile.”
Preach it, Brother Zinn! I testify! Bear witness with me, Expendables all, the man’s got the truth in him!
Oh dear...I guess a Southern childhood, like malaria, will recrudesce willy-nilly. My Catholic religious education didn’t sit well with my mother’s grimly predestination-believin’ “God created the heaven and the earth, then YOU came along and messed it up” Calvinist sinner parents. They snuck me off to revivals at every opportunity. I thoroughly loved it...even then, I thought of it as Firesign Theater-quality foolishness.
Today’s about packing, Expendables. I’lll make it back in as I can. Hugs to all, especially Big Country...and Owen, glad to see you checked in last night!
Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 01/04 at 09:47 AMGood morning Amelopsis, Mickey and everyone,
Mickey—thanks for the Howard Zinn injection. His discussion of Revolution resonantes strongly for me, coming three days after Mrs. Hawk and I did our New Years I Ching reading.
Which hexagram did I get for the coming year?
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO 01/04 at 09:47 AMMudge: May your day be fun and fulfilled....
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO 01/04 at 09:49 AMI would loathe to have to grow up in today’s world and into that of the near future. I wish I could see something more optimistic to behold than a a neoconservatively ruled global capitalist trade zone.
While I am noticing and encountering (here!) more and more individuals who are active in living and changing this pez dispenser future, I don’t see a drastic shift coming soon enough.
What’s worse is that I can’t imagine all the people with children in this world who don’t try harder to be part of effecting change that will mean a more viable future for their children.
Is it really that easy for Joe Consumer who lives across the street with his wife and 2 kids to watch a movie like Fight Club (which was on tv again the other night) and see nothing more than entertainment? Will his son turn out to be a Tyler Durden? If he does, will Dad notice or will he just label his son a mess and tell him to grow up, get a job, etc.?
Why does it seem that society is asking itself so many of the same questions as it was when I was a little girl; hearing talk of efforts to save Africa’s Elephants, Lions & Tigers (oh my) from extinction, et al. Does Joe Consumer really think that we as a society are not collectively capable of living in a better way?
Oh - Don’t think I’ve seen Ace in the Hole...yet.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 09:58 AMSuperb message, this morning, Mickey.
Hello, to you, and to Mudge and Amelopsis & Hawk & JOS, wherever he is, and to Owen…Amelopsis, methinks you’ve stolen my mood. Well, not to worry, I’ll steal it back soon enough.
I’ve generally been feeling just as you’re feeling… hopeless, helpless, lost. Howard is a good tonic, however, and he’s right. We’ve got the struggle, we’ve got our own hearts and minds, and we’ve got each other. We’ll never have more that this, no matter what happens.Gotta get the lad off to school. Back shortly.
Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 10:09 AMJoe said: We’ve got the struggle, we’ve got our own hearts and minds, and we’ve got each other.
Is that so bad?
There was a hole in my life that lasted about 15 years—from about age 19 to 34—when I mourned the loss of “my people.” Growing up before that, I had the neighborhood, I had my hoodlum biker buddies, I had the raggedy stoner friends I’d grown up with in church, and I had a rebellious attitude that wouldn’t let The Man get his claws into me. I kept the rebellious nature as I struck out into the “real world,” first in the Southern California electromechanical assembly shops, and then in a Union Carbide (ugh! Karma!) chemical plant in eastern Washington state. But I lost that sense of belonging, of rubbing elbows with like-minded kindred spirits with a common outlook on life.
Then I found it—or it found me—when I least expected it, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it go again. It had something to do with escaping the factories and finding my way to Boulder, but it also had to do with a political awakening that was engineered by the likes of Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Manning Marabel, Ward Churchill… and, of course, Howard Zinn.
Howard is so right, you know, about performing the little acts of revolution every day of our lives, and sharing the fruits of our little revolutions with other good people as often as possible. It’s one of those secrets that help us get through our alloted time on this dust ball.
And, of course, Cool Observer is one of those magic places where we get to share our little revolutions on a daily basis. It’s a gift that can’t be overestimated, in my estimation.
I “couldn’t” do with out it.
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 01/04 at 11:13 AMMy sense of things is that they’ll get worse, possibly far worse, before the “dawn.” I confess to sometimes feeling frightened, though I’m even more frightened and very much repulsed by the possibility of our simply “slipping back” into the insipid complacency of pre-September 11…
Back then, the world seemed focused on diets, “six-pack abs,” and the accumulation of the correct consumer goods. Now, “at least,” there is war, and growing discontent over the ever increasing weirdness of life in the Bush era.
I guess this sounds like I’m pleased by the current horror, and perhaps to some extent, I am…
T.S. Eliot once wrote:
“That’s the way the world ends,
that’s the way the world ends,
that’s the way the world ends,
...not with a bang, but a whimper.”I’m unable to imagine anything more terrible - or humiliating. Oh, anything - Anything! - but the whimper.
At least, now, the bandages are being ripped from the flesh. The wounds bleed out in the open, and fewer and fewer people are able to turn away toward the comforts of shopping and television and “recreation” and self-help… At least, if we must, we can go down roaring and wailing and
swinging wildly at the madness and horror…Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 11:28 AMHawk I couldn’t agree with you more: "Howard is so right, you know, about performing the little acts of revolution every day of our lives, and sharing the fruits of our little revolutions with other good people as often as possible. It’s one of those secrets that help us get through our alloted time on this dust ball.
And, of course, Cool Observer is one of those magic places where we get to share our little revolutions on a daily basis. It’s a gift that can’t be overestimated, in my estimation."
It’s invaluable to know, as a Canadian, that there are Americans who care. Your gov’t has been coopted by this horrible entity to an extent never seen before (in my lifetime) and it really is a tonic to be able to come here and read Mickey’s thoughts for the day and discuss them and various other ‘little revolutions’ here with all of you: Expendables.
You have collectively “brought” me a refreshing reminder that the USA is definitely more than the sum of its parts and infinitely more promising than the sum of its actions at this point in history.
Joe - this mood strikes me often and fortunately doesn’t get me down too much too often. I do have my moments though, as I suspect all of us here do.
I know none of you well, but well enough to say most earnestly that each of you is invaluable.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 11:28 AMGreat post this morning, Mickey (and it is morning here, 3:40am! Can’t sleep) I see a trend here and I like where it is going. (I wonder how long it will be before a troll turns up?)
Anyway, I got real solace from reading “A Force More Powerful” a few years ago. It showed from history that the most effective revolutions were/are non-violent which is a view you don’t get from the media, or history books, for that matter.
I really liked Mudge’s (all the best today) observation the other day about that people who pull together and don’t “think in lock-step” with the Gummint are a greater threat than sundry explosions.
Hang in there Jos (from a former “self-medicator")Back to bed now. Check ya later.
Posted by Jim on from 01/04 at 11:48 AMWonderfully said, Hawk.
“Community” is both the destination, and the journey…
And, of course, the “system” is designed, and relentlessly redesigned to preclude every manifestation of real community. Frustrated, frightened, ignorant and isolated: Such are the qualities of the good corporate citizen…
Even a smile and a genuine “hello,” are subversive.Amelopsis - I feel roughly the same as you do, about the US, much of the time…
Hey - my last post left here at 8:28 AM.
Yours left you at - what, 10:28?
And they both arrive in NYC at 11:28…Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 11:50 AMGood Morning Everyone,
My Wife and I are talking a lot recently about bringing a couple of kids into the world, the only thing holding me back is that I don’t trust man’s world enough to bring them into it. Unfortunately if we decide to, I feel this pressure to have them ASAP so they have at least a few years to grow before the whole deck of cards comes down.
Captcha = “course” Stay the course?
Posted by Luna_C on from the Delta 01/04 at 11:53 AMMornin’, Jim.
Yeah, even to “stroll,” or run, rather than to march, is to throw a bit of a monkey-wrench into the great gears of “civilization.”
Man, Howard really hits the bullseye, this morning, eh? Thanks, Mickey…Sleep well, Jim.
Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 11:55 AMHi Luna -
Wow.
Well, I’m step-father to a 23 year-old, a 20 year-old, and basically a father to an almost 17 year-old.
I’m not sure what to say about parenthood.One can not prepare for it.
Of all the jobs I’ve had and all the miles I’ve traveled and all the years I’ve lived - nothing even approaches the intensity of parenthood…I don’t want to encourage or discourage. I wish you both well, no matter what you choose…
Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 12:06 PMHi folks
Zinn has so much wisdom it also makes me want to write him a snotty letter asking him not to raise the standards so damn high. Lucky I’m not a historian or I’d be feeling very insecure indeed. The most inspirational parts of his writing are twofold, for me - that he makes everything human & accessable, not someone who wants to raise an ivory tower most can’t follow, & secondly that he writes from such a generous hearted perspective, encouraging an enlightened way to greater truth for more people. Inestimable gifts.
I have to say I strongly disliked my religious upbringing, not because I disagree with Christ, not even because of the dogma (some of which is so ridiculous!), but because of the presumption that we all would happily agree for ever & ever & lead perfectly narrow lives. How pathetic - surely if you have strong faith in god you want people to use their god given gifts to enquire and search.
Wanting people to fit into neatly allocated nutshells is a pathetically bestial approach to humanity, like giving everyone the same sized cupboard to live in ... oh except for the priestys, of course!
Mind, the fun side of being human is realising when you yourself are wrong, or a bit dim or whatever. For instance, a far more zealous sect I encountered at university, when I tried damn hard to impress this very beautiful girl & her equally alluring friend. Both swizzle eyed Jesusfreak looney tunes who believed the Amish were too daring.
Part of the creed was to convert, so, when I suggested she & I should have a drink one evening, I got this bizarre response that we could go after a prayer meeting. Oh shit ... have you ever stood in a theatre feeling a fool & surrounded by worryingly mechanical worship ... ah me!
Small wonder the drink later was chaperoned by her friend, the other goddess, & they spent the time laughing at me. Swine! I’m not saying I should be allowed to sexually impose on anyone, but surely, a little Christian generosity towards someone who made an arse of himself?
A minor quibble, but I can still remember those particular eggs slid down my face with quite a sting.
Now, a good friend of mine had an excellent approach to researching such people (research done in the general name of life) - he & I went along to another service, his suggestion (out of curiosity, as I say) and I reluctantly dragged myself along. Luckily he was well equipped (a hip flask has never been so gratefully offered!) but we still only made it through twenty minutes or so.
Now, I wonder how I’d have found my own Catholic upbringing had I wondered along, a drunk / horny 18 year old. Would I have cringed in the same way at the bad ass hard sell aspects? The same absolute assurance of being correct?
I suppose the main reason for bringing this up, apart from the general chuckle it gives me to look back on my stupidity (an easy thing for a teenager to achieve!), is to say that any time around a religion we find bonkers can leave a lasting impression. I could easily rant about Catholicism, but where’s the point? I worked out once how long I’d spent in churches against my will, and the amount of time was frightening. It cost me some other things dear but, right now, that don’t seem important!
So, for the Mudges & the Hawks & whoever else with the right approach to their own soul, fantastically well done, sirs. Can I recommend Bill Hicks on the subject to anyone about to have a trying time around the zealous & intolerant ... the spiritual equivalent of some mutated vampire wombat, perhaps?
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 12:41 PMJoe, I love the phrase “good corporate citizen” - fits to a nicety!
Personally, I’ve never doubted that the US contained a good portion of splendid souls. I’ve had a few very dear friends from the states, all of whom were excellently attuned to deal with the tyranny & the bullshit. Besides, out of what, 280 m people, some have got to be clear sighted enough to be sane.
But I’m English & we have plenty of drivel of our own, I mean, soccer anyone? 22 guys kicking a ball around, whoopee shit! the excitement is overwhelming. Quite worrying how seriously it gets taken.
My captcha word is British, btw ... is it trying to tell me something?
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 12:47 PMHi Chris - well you bring some wonderful, high-energy to the mix… thank you.
I, too, spent what seemed like years in church. That’s not to mention “Sunday School,” and the frequently obligatory trip to the “confessional,” which generally preceded the Mass. Man, what an agonizing, seemingly endless ordeal.I knew a great many of the families in attendance, each Sunday. I knew who they were in “real” life… I couldn’t believe they felt that this dull, drab, 45 minutes of Latin each week would have any effect at all on their generally vain, mean-spirited, deeply-troubled “souls.” But, for most of them, apparently, it was enough just to see, and be seen.
Once I left the nest, I also left the “church,” and never looked back.Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 01:35 PMhello all. going to be on the depressing side of this one.
i absolutely agree with what Zinn says and with
“To live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvellous victory.”but as much as we try no one can always hit that standard. everyone makes mistakes. “Autiobiography is not to trusted unless it reveals something disgraceful” said orwell, and he was right. sometimes i think the holier than thou stuff on the left (not accusing anyone here of this) detracts from the strength of the ideas. “People do not object to socialism, they object to socialists” - orwell again. I wouldn’t classify myself as a socialist - more close to what mickey puts in his ‘likes’ section -but the idea stands.
so the important thing is to understand that all things are a work in progress and not to go shouting down people who it is deemed don’t meet a certain standard. I have at times been guilty of all the things i am criticising here and am probably guilty of them in this little post which shows how difficult it is.
i think this site is an excellent open forum for discussion and there is not so much of this here but at so many meetings and rallies and conferences and so on i think Orwells words still apply…
“Even the single word ‘Comrade’ has done its dirty little bit towards discrediting the Socialist movement. How many a waverer has halted on the brink, gone perhaps to some public meeting and watched self-conscious Socialists dutifully addressing one another as ‘Comrade’, and then slid away, disillusioned, into the nearest four-ale bar! And his instinct is sound; for where is the sense of sticking on to yourself a ridiculous label which even after long practice can hardly be mentioned without a gulp of shame? It is fatal to let the ordinary inquirer get away with the idea that being a Socialist means wearing sandals and burbling about dialectical materialism. You have got to make it clear that there is room in the Socialist movement for human beings, or the game is up.”
Posted by michael on from scotland 01/04 at 01:36 PMCheers, Joe - always good to exchange thoughts!
Michael, it’s true there’s a lot of narrow zealotry & hard sell with some political meetings / message boards, & it’s a shame. After all, where’s the point in sharing information if people then CAN’T decide for themselves?
Truly bonkers.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 01:47 PMHere I am...fashionably late. I’m energized by your kind words for this little place of ours.
I feel like everyone deserves a mention, so: Hello Amelopsis (Empress of the Expendables), Mudge, Hawk, Joe, Jim, Luna, Chris, Michael, Owen (from last night), and of course, JOS.
Glad to see that Zinn’s words have been well-"received" and are striking many chords today.
Jim, I’m curious: What trend do you discern here? I ask because I’m not exactly sure if I know where I’m going with all this.
Hawk, I’ve been meaning to say: I know your Dad often posts at your blog. Please let Hawk, Sr. know he’s 1000% welcome to stop by and visit us, too.
Luna, tough decision. I can hear Dylan howling in your ear: “You’ve thrown the worst fear that can ever be hurled/Fear to bring children into this world.”
I can’t begin to do justice in replying to all the interesting and provocative comments above but I’ll do my best to join in more for the rest of the day.
Thanks, everyone.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 02:13 PMThanks for inviting my pop, Mickey. I’ll pass it on to him at the soonest opportunity. I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes you up on it. I’ll ask him to post as Hawk Sr.
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 01/04 at 02:45 PMWell, Hugs to you, too, Mr. Z!
Chris, your energy and passion are always delightful, it’s great that you’re so often here.
Thank you.Michael, splendid post, lad!
There are “Lefty” groups which, when they gather, won’t even allow you to smoke outside… “bad press...”
Jesus.
Life is, after all, LIFE!
It’s weird and chaotic and absurd and endlessly creative and disruptive and filled with major and minor scuffles, some of `em inevitably violent. Life.
Life.In 1984, Winston Smith says:
“I hate purity.”One more: In the movie “Blade Runner,” Rutger Hauer played a “replicant.” He was a robot with thoughts and emotions and instincts… He was created to be a slave, and was pre-programmed to die. At one point, he confronted his maker and said:
“I want more life, fucker!”Me too.
My best days in recent memory were those I spent out with the neighbors, trying to keep our homes from washing away…Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 02:50 PMHey, Hawk!
And a “Hey!” to Hawk, Sr.!Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 02:51 PMHey back atcha, Joe.
I just emailed Hawk Sr. with the invitation. I bet he writes in within 24 hours, but we’ll have to see....
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 01/04 at 02:53 PMOh man, Joe… I remember Hauer’s replicant character’s (Chris?) last line in the movie: These moments in time shall soon fade away, like tears in the rain.
This decade sure sucks so far, hope it does all fade though I guess you don’t want to hear about rain again. But hey you brought up Blade Runner.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 01/04 at 03:09 PMGood morning, Mickey and all expendables!
I heart Howard Zinn - thanks for quoting him in today’s post!
That’s all for now - am going to read all the comments ..Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 01/04 at 03:26 PMAll this discussion of not short changing our fellow humans by judging too swiftly or harshly rings very true.
At a few rallies when I’ve spoken to someone offering a paper or info, I have found them to be absolutely innefective. At some point in their rehearsed blurb I interrupt to tell them they are preaching to the converted; they don’t know what to do then. If they’re not selling it, many don’t seem to know how to be comfortable with it. ‘It’ being their own freedom of conscience. They seem to enjoy the fight more than the rewards.
It is very easy and commonplace for any one of us to make summary judgment and we should ensure (I think) that everyone makes their choices freely...and those choices should be INFORMED.
That is the part that usually sets my wick alight...most people are not informed, and I also find that most people would rather not be informed.
Blissful ignorance has become a requirement for the happiness of many in today’s world; shattering the illusion is not looked upon kindly and I personally find it quite challenging to remain personable and friendly while poking a hole in their bubble of reality at the same time.An “open” mind & heart is all that’s truly required; but is sadly not as easily found as sought after.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 03:30 PMMaybe not the best follow-up to Amelopsis’ lovely post above, or a good idea in general, but I found some haiku that some old friends and I typed to each other in the months leading up to the Iraq invasion; you see them dated in a few parts. I think they do match the proper 7/5/7 syllable count. Enjoy!
Now I’ll go to sleep
What will I do with my life
When tomorrow comes?when tomorrow comes
what is left for me but dust
compromise our dreamsHillary Clinton
voted to give war powers
Glad I voted GreenD.C. Sniper shows
That we have no need to search
Too far for terrorAs war approaches
We sleep soundly, peacefully.
Chaos nears, we wait.I don’t create them,
These Doomsday scenarios
I just point them outPosted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 01/04 at 04:03 PMHi to all MZ’ers everywhere.
Mudge, we are with you as you pack and think out of the boxes today.I am a fan of Zinn and agree with almost everything he has ever said or written but I don’t quite agree with “...Small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world....” We don’t have millions. We have each other, and some others scattered around the globe but in this country we are so much in the minority it is hopeless. I don’t know what the answer is, but as we take valuable time trying to find it people are dying...not only in Iraq. People in this country without health care, people being abused in nursing homes, people dying to earn a living in unsafe work environments. My grandparents came here from Poland to work in the anthracite coal mines. The leading news story today has put me in a dark mood. With apologies to everyone, I think Zinn might be advocating the “feel good Politics” that Ward Churchill has written about. My interpretation of some of Zinn is that he wants us to be “nice”, as opposed to Churchill and Malcolm X who want us to be effective.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 01/04 at 04:12 PM“Sets my wick alight.” Nice phrase, Empress.
James, I was planning to post some haiku here on Friday so you’re dead on in my eyes. I like yours a lot, especially this:
I don’t create them,
These Doomsday scenarios
I just point them outHawk, thanks for sending word to your Dad so quickly.
Hello Helga. How are things down under?
Joe, that line (“I want more life, fucker!”) reminds me of some of the May 1968 slogans in Paris, e.g.
BE REASONABLE, DEMAND THE IMPOSSIBLE
STOP SETTLING FOR LESS PAIN. DEMAND MORE PLEASURERMJ: I completely appreciate your point but I don’t think Zinn, in any strict sense, is encouraging folks to nicely accept the situation or feel good in the face of horror. I interpret his words in the spirirt of Emma Goldman’s “if I can’t dance, I don’t want to be part of your revolution.” Also, Churchill can counterbalance Zinn as Malcolm did to MLK.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 04:18 PMThen you should dig these two; hope they don’t lighten the mood here too much. Way back when you’d post your haiku chats with Sparrow, I thought of these with my old Bronx Science flunkies (most are mine, honestly):
Obla di, Obla da
Oh how I hate that song
Too much Paul McCartneySun sun sun, here it comes
And there it goes, so now
Such a long cold lonely winterSomething in the way she moves
Attracts me like no other lover
Something in mine, repels her soGeorge Harrison, He
the forgotten Beatle then
paraphrased by meThirty-two years old
No job for me tomorrow
So I just type haikusSilent morning ride
On the elevator, on the ninth floor
Doors open and I smell toast(and in reply
Hopeless morning ride
Elevator to nowhere
Doors open and I am toastJames P. Langergaard
One day will surpass you all
Doomsday approachesThat’s all I got for now. Need another “system”.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 01/04 at 04:28 PMMickey, you made my point. I don’t want Churchill and Malcolm to be counterbalanced and watered down. Sure there are shades of gray and even shades of grey but there is also black and white and good and evil. Every time I see the Fisk photos, I see the evil that did that to those completely innocent victims. I don’t know how to fix things, but I hope that I am never again “nice” when faced with evil or injustice.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 01/04 at 04:32 PMGreat Film, eh James? Thanks for that last line… tremendous.
Thanks, too, for the haiku… It fits; it all fits!Amelopsis - I’ve had many of the same experiences when gabbing with people. Many on the Left seem to be reading from a script. In fact, most of the Lefty Groups I’ve wandered into were speaking some language with which I wasn’t familiar, though I feel I’m pretty well read and thoughtful… It’s like they weren’t so much conversing as “reciting.”
And, as to “informing,” Oh yeah! The other day I was having a very pleasant conversation with a neighbor I was helping. Suddenly, he began talking about the problems the Israelis are having with the Palestiniens. He had a way to help Israel solve them: Bigger Bombs. I got so very angry, so quickly, that I just mumbled about being available for more work, if needed, and walked away… I was afraid I’d hit him…Rosemarie -
I know how you & Churchill feel. I don’t, however, know what to do. What IS effective?
Most Americans don’t know about ANY dissidents of ANY stripe - be it Huey Newton, Ward Churchill or Howard Zinn. The militants get locked up or killed and are never heard from again. The “feel-gooders,” are only occasionally noticed…“Effective” or “Ineffective,” capitalism makes them all “just disappear...”
Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 04:33 PMThanks, Mickey - those are great lines.
Not with a whimper - but a BANG!James - Keep `em commin’, my man…
Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 04:44 PMI’ve run dry for the moment, Joe… agh! Poor choice of words. haha…
From some star trek movie-- ‘They say time is like a predator, stalking us… it’s the fire in which we all burn. There’s so much that we leave unfinished.” Then Captain Picard had a more cheerful reply, but I can’t remember it now.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 01/04 at 04:51 PMBeing a socialist without being a prick (is that a fair summation of what Orwell said?) I’ve always found difficult, and I’ve never been sure whether its my natural prickishness, or lack of judgement/experience, or just the sheer difficulty of trying to introduce another point of view to sceptical people (wheres that scepticism when we’re talking about horoscopes or government and corporate propaganda, but hey ho). Its probably all of the above.
The crazy thing is, being a prick never seems to harm or bother the Other Side. Why is that? Weight of propaganda? Some devious social engineering? The idea that people who agree with you are OK (all evidence to the contrary aside?) I think some of it at least is that most of the language we rely on (justice, solidarity and so on) has very deliberately been rendered archaic, whereas euphemisms necessarily evolve constantly, yes?
Sorry for ranting (or not, its so hard to tell), got a big crate of cider for my b’day, how tragic that one of the few things my dad knows about me is my favourite brand of supermarket cider.
“spirit”
Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 04:51 PMYou may be right, RMJ. I honestly don’t know. If I knew the answer, I’d be busy implementing it. My one argument would be to state that counterbalancing and watering down are not always the same thing.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 04:53 PMSorry...lots of simul-typing going on. Mew, which cider you on? (Couldn’t resist)
I wanted to add that even if one espouses an approach along the lines of what RMJ is delineating, it does not stop one from trying to “live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us,” as Zinn suggests.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 04:58 PMRosemarie I second your not wanting to be ‘nice’ when such massive consequences are at stake. I’ve been known to give the finger to US drivers on the road here when I see them with neocon slogan bumper stickers. While I realise my action does nothing to advance civil discourse, I figure I can’t really talk to them; since they are abroad and still waving their stripes in the form of a public sticker, I’ll wave my finger in the form of a public symbol. I only hope that 1/2 of them have a clue as to why I’m doing it rather than thinking it’s about traffic laws.
Joe - I can’t imagine what I might say if encountered with that sort of beligerant attitude towards Palestinians. I think it’s great that you kept your cool but that is almost exactly the sort of situation that most frustrates me: you (we, me in some other situ) are presented with ignorance and have the opportunity to correct it; however you can’t really do it without having a discussion or debate about the entire issue and it’s not really something easily done when it comes out of the blue like that.
I find myself making much more effort to broach these uncomfortable moments and take them head on when I can. The last few years of US military action have forced my hand in that respect. I no longer think that the Blissfully Ignorant have the right to choose to remain so and at least some of the time, I ensure that they don’t. (not that I walk up to perfect strangers, but when a situation arises with friends or family)James I dig the haikus!
Mudge - I hope the packing’s going well. Yet another task you’ve undertaken that I do not envy. May your cardboard be plentiful! (nothing worse than getting into a groove and then running out of boxes!)
Speaking of Israel - just read that Sharon’s had a major stroke. Goes to show you that eating like you’re jabba the hut is not good for your health.(not to mention gratuitous killing)
Must go - hope to make it back later.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 05:00 PMsimultyping for sure...MZ #38 - I’m with you there. As Ghandi said and you quoted the other day...We must be the change we wish to see in the world.
That’s my “plan” and I’m sticking to it.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 05:02 PMThe thing I get from Churchill is urgency. The thing I get from Zinn is reasoned compassion. I get trustworthy information from both. In my relatively uncomplicated mind they don’t clash.
(to any Brit lurkers, I’d recommend Mark Curtis over Zinn. Zinn is brilliant, but its always better to know what your own bit of the world has been up to.)
About urgency, a great link from Mr Goff the other day. Stan’s another guy I agree with more than not, the “not” not preventing me from counting him as a good guy.
Mickey, I’m on the soide of the the “olde english”, of course! Its not as good as addlestons, only proper cloudy cider you can get in a london pub.
Seriously, good pun, and that from a man who hates puns like he hates the tube (subway) at rush hour. The “Help Us Keep Your Tube Safe” posters do cheer me up though
So much for my sophisticated sense of humour.
Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 05:31 PMMornin’ All esp Joe, again!
Mickey, the trend I see is a desire for change that’s effective both personally and socially and your posts are reflecting that. Your looking for a way to strike back at the Empire (hope I’m not being too lyrical here) and the phrase of yours that sticks out is “no longer business as usual”. You seem to me to be poking around in the rubbish of our history looking for something that may have worked once or shown promise.
Overall, I think the mood for yourself (and you’ve caught the mood of many here) is “#### it. Somethin’s gotta change here. I aint doin’ this no more”.
If I haven’t completely slipped off my perch with this, you can let me know (either way).Oracle says “club”
Posted by Jim on from 01/04 at 05:42 PM>Your looking for a way to strike back at the Empire (hope I’m not being too lyrical here)
Nah. What we need is to somehow tie up the legs of the imperial juggernaut with a superstrong wire, so that they fall over and miraculously their armour stops being impervious to our blasters. Yes? Oh, and we should all have lightsabres. Wave your nightstick at me now, Darth!
Um, yes, you’re right Jim.Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 06:04 PMJames your haiku are a billion million times better than mine.
And Mr Z, I’ve finally gotten round to filching my sisters copy of Fight Club, so I’m actually going to know what you guys are on about!
Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 06:06 PMHere in my miniscule, obscure little corner, Jim, I just might be thinking that: “#### it. Somethin’s gotta change here. I aint doin’ this no more.” This much is certain: what I’ve been doing hasn’t exactly set the world on its ear.
Mew: First James beats me to the haiku punch and now you talk about Fight Club, a book I was gonna suggest as an Expendable group reading project tomorrow.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 06:12 PM>what I’ve been doing hasn’t exactly set the world on its ear.
Alright, but what were you trying to do, liberate India? Even the mythical Gandhi didn’t do that. There are over a dozen regulars (and I know not how many lurkers) here who take some strength from you and what you do, and they do a dozen times more than you’d do on your own. Don’t belittle yourself.
Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 06:21 PMMew, I’m totally with you on the London tubes. Luckily I live in more laid back Manchester, with its fine traditions of rain, hooliganism & innovative musicians ... As to Mark Curtis - good call! I have a copy of Unpeople on my shelves, but haven’t got round to reading it yet - my book cup runneth over and spilleth out onto ye floor (bugger!).
Fight Club is excellent in many ways & I heartily second that as a book club choice.
Can I make a mention on something I’m reading re torture - “Unspeakable Act, Ordinary People” by John Conroy. He makes some great points about the development of what is acceptable as torture - the Romans, for example, started with fairly narrow confines as to who could be tortured, & why, & these spread far & wide during the years following its acceptance.
I see the horrible fact that soon people will be clamouring for suspects to be tortured - oh my god! I found out a few years ago that Israel had a manual on torture, then came the news (to me, at least) that the CIA has had one since 1963 (fuckers), & in Conroy’s book there is a quite sickening account of the treatment of suspected IRA people by the British - I don’t know if I’m more disgusted that it is allowed, or that the “intelligence” used in these cases has resulted in despicable, life changing ordeals for wholly innocent people. (& I’m not saying it’s acceptable for the guilty!)
So in the dark times to come, as they will, please remind anyone you can of these terrible things - this shit is unacceptable, from any perspective.
MZ, since you have such a fine knack of clearly demonstrating the cases & the rules of oppression, why not look to some torture cases for your next piece? Since recent scandals rang out I’ve had an interest in the matter, and you know how people love to be informed - & how important it is for the material to get out there. I plan to use the torture details (not nauseatingly graphic ones, mind!) in my next piece of (fictional) writing. I implore you all to consider doing the same - it can’t be condemned enough.
Rosemarie, best of luck to you for your case on 8th Jan - btw, that evil fuckstain who edits your local paper never replied, the bastard.
Amelopsis, more power to your bird finger, & I hope the neocons you annoy work out why you give them the good news.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 06:25 PMPS Joe - cheers, you made my day! All the best, buddy!
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 06:26 PMJoe, think of how good you would have felt if instead of walking away from your misinformed neighbor, you had turned your water hose on him,and then said, “This is only water hitting you. Rachel Corrie had a tank hitting her”. Sorry, I understand why a person can’t do things like that in their neighborhood.
Hi James, jim, Helga & anyone I am missing.
Amelopis, glad to hear your finger is in the up position.
Mew, I also think that Churchill continues to remind us of the urgency. Mickey was on to something yesterday when he said “No more business as usual”. The only problem with that is that to too many on the left all it means is not shopping at Wal-mart. Then they go down to the boutique, pay 3 times as much, and buy the same thing also made by “slave” labor.
Mickey’s #38..."live now as human beings should live”.I agree. Human beings should always be prepared to protect the innocent by any means necessary.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 01/04 at 06:35 PMChris, thanks for your good thoughts. I am not surprised by the failure of the editor. I really appreciate your effort and it will be duly noted if I ever write the book. About the Jan 8 date...I am not sure where that came from. Actually I could hear from the State Supreme Court tomorrow or it might take many more months. My life is in “their” hands.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 01/04 at 06:43 PMRMJ - probably got the date mixed up - sorry! Lot of info, small head.
The State Supreme Court, eh? Sounds like there’s a bunch of fancypants who think mighty well of themselves, IMHO.
Please let me know if there’s anyone I can write to your behalf.
And with that, Christopher is off to bed, for today he was back at work and lo! slept through his alarm, and woketh to sore amazement at a bemused call from his boss who was wondering if he could have the pleasure of my delightful company ... glad I work for a nice bloke! But need to retire a trickle earlier tonight.
Best all. Joe, I reckon it’s time for a bag of flaming dog poo on said neighbour’s doorstep ... I mean, who would suspect you?
Flaming dog poo - there’s a cocktail there! (probably with Guinness in it!)
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 01/04 at 06:52 PMMZ - I like the Fight Club nomination for a group read, I’ve only seen the movie thus far.
Sounds to me like a choice that might just have “mass” appeal.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 01/04 at 07:10 PMChris, your mention of the CIA torture manual put me in mind of the example of the School of the Americas torture handbook that I remember reading about in some Chomsky book or other (sorry, but they do rather blur into one another don’t they). Whenever I would bring that up in some stupid pointless forum plonker-pulling session, the thread would die, no Rightys wanted to play anymore. That was before Abu Graib & Guantanamo Bay became public knowledge, now they have White House approved answers.
And also Chris, may I recommend the Mucky Mew, basically a B-52 thats been given a good old shake? Looks like dog-poo. Tastes like a terry’s chocolate orange. Give Joe’s neighbour a few and he’ll be on the side of the angels in no time.
Rosemary, I’ve often felt like commiting some heavy-handed act of ironic justice against certain people known to me. In fact I can think of much better punishments for a modern ‘Nuremburg’ than hanging.
“nation” Ha!
Posted by Mew on from England 01/04 at 07:12 PMThanks, Amelopsis. I will “still” make a post tomorrow about our group reading project...but I’m excited that Fight Club might be the choice.
Chris: Here’s something I wrote on torture 3 years ago: http://tinyurl.com/9ejst.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 07:31 PMJames is the master
Its harder than I though, though
Haiku Mac Daddy(not a typo in the 2nd line; I can’t explain it)
I’m surprised by how excited I am to read Fight Club; maybe I will in any case. Might be just what I need right now. A friend once said the movie is way better than the book and it would be good to find out if he’s right. I hope he’s not.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 01/04 at 08:02 PMI just realized that I forgot to say HI to JOS. Sorry....
Just read that old torture article by Mickey. It is so relevant today.
Mew, the lessons of Nuremberg are forgotten in the USA, unfortunately. C-span recently did some interviews on those trials. It was very interesting. One of the comments during the interview was that the movie, “Judgement at Nuremberg” was fairly close to the real facts. Another comment was that those who were guilty were mostly well educated, economically advantaged, well respected members of society. I know that all of those here at Mickey’s know that but it was interesting to hear that in view of the “Eichmann” comment that disturbed so many when Churchill said it.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 01/04 at 08:22 PMSo, for the record, I’m all for reading Fight Club with you guys. It’s about a third the length of Sometimes a Great Notion, and shouldn’t take too much out of our blogging time.
I sure loved the movie, too.
Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO 01/04 at 08:59 PMIt is well known that the “intelligence” (tell me this isn’t an ironic world) gained from torture is generally factually useless.
So why is it done?
It is done because the torturers and their handlers are corrupted by power. In short, they are deluded as to the nature of reality.
And they do it because they love to do it.
It feeds the addiction to power and holds at bay the reality of their own fragility and powerlessness in the face of nature or creation if you like. They do not want to face the reality that they are creatures not creators.They want to be God.
And these people are running our governments. Something, indeed, needs to change. Consent needs to be withdrawn in a hundred different ways.
Can we count the ways?
Oracle says “analysis” I kid you not
Posted by Jim on from 01/04 at 09:04 PMMickey, I forgot to say “Top article on ‘we don’t do torture’” Goodonya.
Oracle says “class” - better believe it!
Posted by Jim on from 01/04 at 09:06 PMHello you exemplary expendables -
Amelopsis & Rosemarie - About my neighbor and myself… I really wanted to shove him or pop him one. Just didn’t seem right, and I didn’t have any “moderating” emotions or thoughts to make use of, in the moment. Recently, I have tried to be more “in your face,” about these matters, but sometimes I fear I’ll lose control of myself - something that, frankly, frightens me.
Mickey - your piece really tore me up a bit. Great work, grim subject.
And, I’d like to focus on
“one’s job,” for a moment.Here’s the line that took me off in this direction:
“If you don’t violate someone’s human rights some of the time, you probably aren’t doing your job.”When did it happen that one’s fucking job became some sort of sacred duty, a profound & spiritual covenant with the Supreme?
I’m so sick of hearing this crap from people. You see interviews with police officers who have roughed up demonstrators, or prison guards who regularly beat up prisoners, or soldiers who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, or with ex-secret-agent types,
and they explain their barbarity with the phrase: “I was just doing my job.”The I.R.S. guy who takes your house for non-payment of taxes is “just doing his job.”
The teachers who expell students for the crime of bringing nail-clippers to school are “just doing their job.”
The N.S.A. people who spy on American Citizens or on various political enemies of the State are “just doing their job.”
The asshole judges who willingly apply obviously racist and biased laws in their legal judgements are “just doing their jobs.”
The social workers who take people’s kids away primarily because the parents are poor or uneducated or homeless - are “just doing their job.”#### your job!
It’s a JOB! It’s just a fucking job!
Get another one… a different one…“choice”
honestPosted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 09:24 PMHello again, my fellow Expendables. I’m pleased that it just might be Fight Club. I can’t fully explain it but I’ve read the book at least once (maybe twice) and seen the flick a handful of times...but it always pumps me up. It’s been a while so I’m looking forward to reading it again.
Joe: Your excellent comment above reminds me of Thoreau. The tax collector came to his house to collect money for the war effort (Mexican-American War). Thoreau refused and explained why to the young man. The man was puzzled and asked, “But, it’s my job, what can I do?” Thoreau replied: “Quit.”
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 09:31 PMGreat Goddess below us! I go away for most of a day amd what happens?! Y’all develop a severe case of chattiness. One specific response is…
MZ #45: >>>what I’ve been doing hasn’t exactly set the world on its ear.<<<
So? You need to be a noisy revolutionary? Fight your hearts and minds battles, MZ, let others more unsophisticated and rumbustious do the damfool stuff.
Ever’body, this has been the first of several more busy days. It’s not over yet, but I am knackered. See everyone tomorrow, hugs all around and smooches for them as wants ‘em.
Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 01/04 at 10:13 PMHi Mickey.
Thanks for the Thoreau… he always surprises and delights me. I once read that Emerson, one of the towering minds in all of history, said that Thoreau was the greatest man he’d ever met.That said - He might have spiced up his response with some fucking expletives!
“Fight Club” sounds good to me - and a good length, too. I really enjoyed the movie, and I’ll be pleased to wade into the book.
Oh, yeah, I’m “involved.”Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 10:14 PMMuch love to you, our Mr. Mudge.
Give us a mornin’ update, `kay?Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 10:17 PMMickey and all: Thanks for the invitation, and thanks for this blog and great dialogue.
I had just sat down with a good glass of Zin. Then you treat me to some even better Zinn. I’ll sleep much better tonight.
Posted by Hawk Sr. on from Las Cruces NM 01/04 at 10:24 PMI’m nodding off here, but I just had to welcome Hawk, Sr. I look forward to getting to know you. Here’s to Zinn and Zin. Sleep well…
Mudge: I guess I should “indeed” clarify my “world on its ear” comment. Not false modesty or self-pity...just re-evaluation. I’d like to do things a little differently. Not sure how yet, but it’ll happen. P.S. Good luck with the packing and okay, I’ll take a smooch from a good friend like you.
G’night, all.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 01/04 at 10:29 PMPS seems like Fight Club is the first choice by acclamation for the EBC, long live the ring!
>snerk< my captcha oracle seems a widge testy..."john" >snerk<
Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 01/04 at 10:30 PMHawk Sr! Welcome, Sir.
We’re just a bunch of loud, acerbic, half-wits -
but we’re NICE, loud, acerbic, half-wits…
Good to meet ya, Mr. Hawk.Posted by joe on from Oregon 01/04 at 11:41 PM
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