Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Saturday, February 18, 2006
Fast Eddie wins
A-ha! first one here…
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 08:54 AMAs I’m first up here today, I’d like to post a little story.
I was 18 and at university in Lancaster. We were poor in them days (no TVs of our own, which was poor to us spoilt bastards!) and had to cram into some shitty common room to watch TV.
As I hate soccer, and that was the main dish of the day everyday in that room, I avoided it. One day, however, a friend proposed which watch a movie in there one evening - Apocalypse Now.
I hadn’t seen it, but had heard great things. The guy who suggested it was a military type, doing OTC (Officer Training Corps) as well as his studies. He was also a good friend & splendid company, but unshakeable about certain issues, as I’ve found military types often are.
So, we watched - halfway through he was thoroughly into it, and so was I. Then the movie takes its dark turn - Rupert (or “The Bear”, as he was nicknamed within about two hours of arriving in Lancaster) hated every thought provoking second. War to him was still glorious and his view of this only hardened over the years.
He was wholly disappointed with the film - “why couldn’t they have stayed with the fighting?” summed up his view, rather like the troops in Jarhead screaming delight at the explosions.
That was our first year. Rupert went to Germany for a while to continue his degree & soldier training ... we met up briefly & by chance right at the end of college when we were both 21. A lot of things had happened, naturally, & we didn’t have much time to catch up.
We drank a few beers & tried to crack jokes, but he was wholly different. The pleasant, fun loving lad who was always up for a laugh in first year had become horribly hard eyed. His body was far broader & leaner, as you’d expect, but the different was in his face.
I can’t say I’ve had much experience of war or the military, far from it, & I intend to keep it that way. But while this is rather trite & unsurprising, it is personal & so I mention it. I lost a good friend to the military, not because he was killed or traumatised (he hadn’t seen any action - delightful term - by that point), but just because the military trained him. Fuckers.
His big ambition was to join the SAS. I haven’t heard from him since college, & don’t doubt that he has made a career in the army, maybe not the SAS, but who knows? I have a horrible suspicion that he’ll have found his war somewhere. He could be a mercenary now, working for one of those bastard companies our governments are so fond of for a variety of reasons. He could be dead. He could be an ice cold murderer.
Today, when everything seems so good to me just by it being a beautiful & laid back day, for some reason I’m thinking of my old friend Rupert. I dearly hope he woke up in time.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 08:57 AMBollocks! JOS snuck in while I was smugly typing “the first entry of the day.” Fiendish JOS! Where’s your sense of sportsmanship, mate?
Captcha says “earlier.” Pods!
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 08:58 AMgood story, Mick...the lightening quickness of bruce lee came to mind when you related the subway part. I’ll have to think about a story of my own…
The Turkish movie sounds like a good one, I read about it last week somewhere...Billy Zane as the crazy American killer, I think I heard something about GAry Busey. I saw a little trailer here:
http://www.valleyofthewolvesiraq.com/high/main.html
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 09:02 AMoops! Sorry, Chris...good story about Rupert. The military will take the fun-loving nature out of anybody.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 09:13 AMNo worries, JOS, just funny we were both doing the same thing.
The Turkish movie does sound superb, & I’m hoping it will be shown around here & soon ... often we don’t get really good movies until long after release & then sometimes a movie we do a small showing early on & I miss it! Arse.
I’m glad Gary Busey & Billy Zane are in the film - good to see Hollywood stars putting their skills to use. I saw an interview with Gary Busey & Alex Jones a while back, & the guy has some radical views, although he does come across as a bit fucked up.
About the military - yes, you’re so right. My big thing as a Brit (hate the term, but if fits here) is to tell as many people as I can (when the subject comes up) what a bastard Churchill was.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 09:16 AMOh yeah...Busey is a seriously crazy bastard...that’s what I love about him. Churchill was a sadistic bastard...that I hate.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 09:20 AMIndeed so! Fair comment.
This is an interesting one:
Has some great Germany magazine covers which are “anti US.” Make up your own minds ...
Interesting that this nutty blog I linked to considers Al Jazeera as “extremely one sided” ... duh. Unlike so much US media, naturally. But how can you be, um, “two sided” (sic?) about such atrocities? Show dead babies killed by US & Brit bombs, then a speech of GW’s saying how it’s all ok?
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 09:25 AMWe were speaking about Chomsky here the other day, Chris, and your comment reminded me of one of the things he talks about that really hit home for me back in the day...the horrible failure of the US media, talking heads, politicians, etc to use the same standards of judgement for other country’s (or in this case, foreign movie maker’s) actions. It really gets to the root of things...American exceptionalism.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 09:42 AMYo Mickey, JOS, Chris, and whoever else is lurking.
First: WWAD? I’m glad you asked, Mickey. “I’d strike the sun if it threatened me!”
Second: Chris, this is one of the most poignant remarks on the whole bloody mess I have come across in a long time: “I lost a good friend to the military, not because he was killed or traumatised [...] but just because the military trained him.”
That’s a great link, as well, to the “anti-Der Spiegel” blog. With film, with art, and with journalism, there must be a strong and open bias against war, oppression, imperialism, ecocide. If not, I think there is an implicit embrace. I may have left this quote here before, it’s from a letter by Dan Geist to Harper’s (January ‘06) criticising Jarhead as being “too evenhanded for anitwar purposes”:
Like most polemics, a truly effective antiwar movie must be unfair, a virtually unrelenting nightmare, as with the two most uncompromising antiwar films in the English language: Stanley Kubrick’s Paths of Glory and the first half of his Full Metal Jacket. (No, not Dr. Strangelove, the antiwar movie for those who need no convincing.) They are unfair, unbalanced, unreservedly depicting the essence of military life as utterly hearless--and all the more powerful for it.
I hope that’s what to expect from Valley of the Wolves.Posted by Keir on from The Hague 02/18 at 09:48 AMGood morning MZ, JOS, Chris & Every Expendable
I’d not heard of that Turkish movie at all, nor Cache that SK mentioned yesterday. They both pique my interest. Billy Zane will be an easy fit in his villainous role - the sight of him drives me to start with so it’s a good thing he’s playing someone I’m supposed to dislike. I still have yet to see any of Clooney’s recent movies...too cheap for theatre seats...but I ought to be able to rent them soon enough.
From yesterday, RMJ I’m saddened to hear you had the brunt of yesterday’s weather. It was pretty rough around here too, but I certainly am not missing any roof shingles; I hope the damage is none too substantial. More than that, I hope your legal meetings are positive and productive ones - I’m sure they’re not enjoyable.
Mudge - better day today I hope?Stories.... Chris I think your story about your friend highlights very well the manner in which people are trained / brainwashed into something that is essentially less human. Even in other circumstances it is disturbing. I check in on the personal blog of a female journalist who’s a Palestinian living in Gaza with her young son. Recent posts have been describing the experience of living through the sound blasts and drone attacks....her young son looks to her for confirmation as to whether he should be afraid or not when the noise and blasts begin sporadically through the night. I was considering how this fact alone: that the young boy barely past being a toddler, will grow up learning to hear this invasion as part of the background of the daily life as he knows it. I consider that even if his mother does the most wonderful and outstanding job of raising him with love and morals and a concscience that is just; the mere trauma of living with that noise and being taught at such a young age to accept it (his mother distracts him and plays during the noise); might well prove enough to motivate him to be radically violent later in life.
So very disturbing.Captcha “girl”
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 09:56 AMKeir - you snuck in there - morning to you and I hope you’re not viral anymore!
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 09:57 AMSorry, I am still running a day late trying to catch up here. About Clooney, I am not sure. Richard Dreyfus is calling for Impeachment. Alec Baldwin is calling the VP a terrorist. Maybe Hollywood is slowly waking up.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 10:00 AMAmelopsis, Thanks, what a difference a day makes. My main concern yesterday was about pipes freezing and bursting. That could cause major, many thousands of dollars, of damage. I don’t have the money for my own generator but that is the solution to the problem because power outages are common up here. Also, the town needs an Emergency Management plan. I have been advocating for that for years. Still not happening. Yesterday even the police dept was not able to get information. At one location in Vermont yesterday the winds reached 143 mph.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 10:09 AMHello Expendables. What a great start here today. I’m gonna work my way up from the last comment.
RMJ: Sorry to hear about the weather issues. Things have not exactly been smooth for you lately, huh? Also, you might be right. In the post-Vietnam/Watergate era, Hollywood was much different than the ensuing Reagan/Rambo era. Perhaps the current world climate will provoke more non-mainstream movies...and hence, more dissent.
Keir: I agree about Jarhead. I liked it but also wondered if the message was too subtle.
Empress: What does this mean: “drives me to start”? Also, can you provide a link for the blog you mentioned?
JOS: I just wanted to say thanks for being a part of this blog longer than anyone else. Great to have you back around here so often.
Chris: Excellent story...if such a sad tale can be called excellent. Multiply Rupert by millions all across the globe and that’ll help explain things.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:15 AMThanks, Keir, & I agree about coverage - anything less than total bias against war is tacit approval. How can journalism (or any statement) about such things be objective? That would be inhuman, not to be moved by such things. Also, again, curious that any network or outlet showing the devastation is “biased.”
The double standards & double speak are sickening, represented at its worst (for me) in the view that you can’t criticise your country when it’s at war.
Michelle Malkin commented briefly on the “Wolves” film - just by citing two comments & then saying “It’s a good thing nobody’s questioned their patriotism.” Such blind idiocy is striking, even though it’s not hard to find.
Reminds me of a line Christy Moore sang about the British and Ireland:
“You Anglo patriot squaddies send to colonise the north ... you wave your fucking Union Jack, well you know what it’s worth.”
JOS, I think we’re talking about little less than brainwashing regarding the media. It’s curious, given the comparisons with Nazi Germany that have come about recently, how much more open minded certain countries are about their flaws, or their governments. In England the vast majority have still got their eyes closed about our savage empire building & brutality ... after all, we’re British!
(pause to bang head against wall)
Amelopsis, that situation is a nightmare. How anybody could cope is beyond, but I suppose necessity takes care of that. A truly evil thought.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 10:15 AMCheers, MZ. I wonder, what could act as an intervention in such cases? Is there such a thing if the mind is determined to stay closed, where it’s comfy?
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 10:26 AMMickey re#15 and my comment about Zane: very poor grammar and punctuation on my part, sorry about that. I don’t like him. The mere sight of him causes me to immediately dislike the character he portrays even if that’s not the intended reaction. Silly & I have no rationale for it, but there it is.
Here’s a link to the blog I mentioned earlier:
http://tinyurl.com/amzrzIt’s a cold and sunny day here today; whaddya know? It’s a little like ...winter!
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 10:29 AM143 MPH, RMJ? Wow. I was just getting used to my first 0 degree (Fahrenheit) day I have experienced in a couple of years yesterday...my damn cell phone froze. I ain’t used to this, being from PR and all.
Amelopsis, I saw Cache...interesting movie...great last shot, you’ll see what I mean when you see it.
Mick...I remember reading an article of yours many years ago on Znet and it hit me like a breath of fresh air, it was only natural that I end up here. Thank YOU.
Chris, I know of no group with brains more washed than the “American” media…
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 10:29 AMIt’s a big project, Chris, as far as I can see. We’d need to cultivate an environment in which kids don’t grow up conditioned toward violence. Short term, however, I’d love to see something like the Scared Straight program they did to frighten youths about jail. They brought these teens to prisons and had the inmates scare the shit out of them about life behind bars. Most of the teens steered away from street crime after that. Imagine if we could put together books and videos about war and show them to young people in all countries. And have former soldiers debunk any romantic notions about putting on a uniform and grabbing a gun.
Captcha sez: Enough.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:33 AMOops...simultyping. Thanks, Empress and JOS.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:35 AMGreat photos from Gaza Girl: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gazawia.
It’s also gotten wintery here, btw. Not as bad as Vermont or Chicago, I’m sure...but jolting after all this abnormally warm weather.
Are things going well for you, JOS?
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:38 AMok - marketing does work, and I have a jingle in my head for some old ad touting a shampoo to wash the gray out of one’s hair.
re: the washed americans..."I’m gonna wash that brain right outta my head”...
A moment of outright silliness and I’m sorry I can even recall the tune, but there it is.
Chris the same wonderment at survival that you just expressed is the same thing I inevitably think whenever I read her posts. Even whey they are not terribly fascinating, I think holy shit - I just can’t imagine trying to live in those circumstances - even when they’re good (relatively speaking) it’s really just a subhuman existance that is forced upon them. Then consider that many generations know no other existance and voila! A land that seems destined to exist in permanent conflict while it’s just another byline in the news.
So much strife in so many places, which inhuman behaviour shall we focus our attentions upon?Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 10:38 AMLove this, Empress: “I’m gonna wash that brain right outta my
head”Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:39 AMI gather that you too, recall the melody in the old commercial?
I’m glad you linked to her photos, they’re really quite good. If you go to page 8 - 10 there are some fantastic shots of the first days after Gaza was ‘opened’ up recently...people going to their own beach for the first time, and at the border with Egypt. They provide an insight that I simply would not get any other way. Ah the wonders of the internets.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 10:46 AMThings are going very well, Mick...I am learning a lot about gratitude, in other words: being in a state of constant grateful-ness. I have had more support here than I deserve.
Where the hell is Joe?
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 10:50 AMgreat site, Amelopsis, great pictures...anyone notice anything (that we Westerners might find odd) about the beach picture?:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gazawia/42760763/
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 10:54 AMEmpress, I believe it’s from the musical, South Pacific.
Great news, JOS. Or grate news? As for Joe, he e-mails me on occasion to say hello. He’s crazy busy and promises to stop by soon.
I gotta head out soon. Gonna spend some time with our 4-year-old nephew.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:55 AMReclaiming most of the media would be the best way to “wash that brain right out of my head” (I agree, a lovely phrase!). I think this is damn near impossible, unless someone here has a few billion in loose change they won’t miss.
But there can and should & always be lights of truth burning, & maybe that’s all we’re gonna get.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, England 02/18 at 10:58 AMI’m off for a little while, too...by the way, the thing I noticed in that picture at the beach is that there is not one woman there. By the way, that is an observation, not a judgement.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 11:02 AMFrom South Pacific? So my hyper consumer upbringing was even more effective than I’d presumed...a song from a musical (ok - it’s not the opera) and I only recall it as a commercial jingle. Eesh.
JOS - yes the minimal exposure of flesh and the lack of silicone on display is something quite different for us. There’s also the look of true joy that is seldom evident for us unless surrounded by ‘stuff’ and a matching beach outfit complete with shoes and a bag.
Good to hear Joe’s ok, hope he’ll be able to stop in soon.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 11:04 AMJOS I went to look again - good observation. I wonder if they’ve chosen a different “area” of beach? I’ve seen that here on occasion, Muslim families will enjoy the beach in male/female shifts, as it were. Cultural heritage peculiarity?
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 11:07 AMAfter a lifetime of NY and other American beaches, it’s virutally impossible for me to imagine a day at the beach without seeing bikinis. How’s that for conditioning?
See everyone later…
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 11:19 AMEnjoy the uncontaminated glee that is a 4 year old!
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 11:28 AMJOS, thanks for noticing our weather up here. Today is a good day by comparison. The luxury of a hot cup of anything seems miraculous. Funny the things you miss the most on days like yesterday....Yesterday I fantasized about a hot cup of coffee or tea.
Right now on c-span they a re-airing a Congressional hearing about whistle blowers and the government. One of the whistle blowers testified about how our troops misuse and abuse Iraqi children as a way of breaking down the parents. What kind of a person could abuse children like that???? Also, in the news this week was the UN report calling for the closing of the prison at Guantanamo. Even Congress does not have information about the numbers and locations of the Black Prisons throughout the world. Who’s in charge? Probably nobody whose face we have ever seen.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 11:44 AMWhat kind of a person could abuse children like that????
I so often find myself wondering similar questions, Rosemarie; I think the answer is described quite well by Chris’ story from this morning.What is chilling is the great numbers of legions who become less human(e) and how their numbers have grown with such vapid fertility.
That it exists does not suprise me, but that it flourishes so, is chilling.We forget to “give” as much as we take. For good and bad.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 12:19 PMMy loquaciousness is running out now, but this song was playing while I’ve been ‘internetting’ and I thought some of you might find it interesting. It’s called Wet Brain. You’ll have to scroll to the bottom of the page for it.
Lyrics and clip:
(Martin & the Rheos would both be among my ‘Desert “Island”’ disc choices)
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 12:26 PMFight Club on the Xbox. Consumer culture spieling its own demise...Marx said something about this, something about capitalists selling the rope that hangs them...?
>eep<
Chris, we all lose loved ones to conditioning at some point. It is the corporate sale of identity...don’t know what you should be? We have some suits over here to give you structure. It’s apparently easier to do that than do the thinking required to make up (every sense of that phrase) your own mind. Wish I could do that.
RMJ, 143mph is a category 4 hurricane if it’s sustained; and damn good and serious if it’s “only” gusts. May your roof survive.
Empress dear, hands not good...high today only 36F (was 85F on Thursday). Better than yesterday, though! Thanks for asking. I’m gonna wash that pain right outta my hands
Lastly, JOS, 0F after Puerto Rico where cold is 50F...do you have any hair left, or did it freeze off?!
Bye now
Posted by Mudge on from Austin 02/18 at 12:32 PMVery good to ‘see’ you Mudge. May your hands recover quickly that you may bring us your more mudgely self more often again.
Helga, how’s your tomorrow weather down under?
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 12:44 PMmy beard turned to icicles and the wind caused solid tears to drop from eyes, mudge…
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 02/18 at 12:51 PMIt is horrible to see someone you know, love or like changing, at least for the worse. Actually, most horror is about changing. The horror I find horrible anyway.
Our film editor went to see the UK premiere of syriana the other week, I’ll pick her brains about it. She usually has good taste from a film PoV, it’ll be interesting to see what she makes of the politics. I’ve a date to see “Good Night & Good Luck” next week at the Brixton Ritzy (OK, its with my sister and no, this isn’t backwoods Alabama.)
Wonderful sunset here, are there any sobre brits (or even scots) to confirm this, or am I just drunk and in love?
All “together” now…
Posted by mew on from not london, hooray! 02/18 at 12:52 PMMudge, I was lucky yesterday. The winds only got up to about 70 MPH at my house. The 143 was a bit farther north. Today I am enjoying over- indulging in HOT coffee. Usually I don’t even like coffee......I wish that there was something to ease your pain. Sometimes medical science is not very helpful.
Amelopsis, “We forget to give as much as we take.” I like that. That statement could be given to many in the “anti-war” movement. Yes, I agree about Chris’s story this morning. Every parent should know things like that, but they don’t. Their views are so warped with the glory of war, and the parades, and the rancid teaching in our schools. Trying to get the truth out is like shoveling against the tide.
Keir, thanks for the comment at Pressaction.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 01:02 PMGreetings, all.
Chris #2: I thought war was an exciting prospect…when I was eight! The folks in the military have a saying, “Young, dumb, and full of come.” That is the recruiter’s target demographic. I agree that Apocalypse Now (The original release, not the bloated re-release) captures some bit of the chaos and madness that is war. Books, however, are the way to go if you want to probe the reality of war. Remarque’s All Quiet On The Western Front would be top of the list. Eugene Sledge, Paul Fussell, James Jones, and Norman Mailer will get you there as well. It’s a shame the YDFOC crowd doesn’t read.
On a related note, I just finished reading Schlachthof-funf. What a strange, haunting, clever book. I’m hooked.
I saw a trailer for Valley of the Wolves and immediately thought, “What Crap!” Can you believe what rubbish those Turks call entertainment! I mean, the violence, the cultural stereotypes, the third rate actors! Jeez, that reminds me of…well…umm…you know, let’s just forget I said anything, OK?
It sucks to be the bad guys, don’t it? Welcome to the world.
RMJ #35: When someone does something reprehensible, I want to say to them, “Don’t you have a Mother? What would she say about what you’ve done?” Clearly some folks don’t have Mothers, but I think you get my point.
I went to the MVA to get my license renewed yesterday. I was in and out in 10 minutes. Who said there wasn’t a God? While I was there I changed my voter registration to “Unaffiliated”. Yup, I think that sums it up. Anyway, the woman typing in my voter info said, “You change your mind because of Cheney?” I laughed. “No, he changed my mind about quail hunting, but that’s it.” She complained that the media were making such a big deal about his shooting a man in the face. I agreed that there were many other more important things that the media should be focusing on. I meant more important things about Cheney the media should be focusing on. She didn’t catch the distinction. Que sera.
Posted by Cart on from near Warshington DC 02/18 at 02:32 PMMickey #20, I´ve been thinking about this a lot of late, remember there was talk about an irrecruitment handbook around the time of the Nano? well if anyone wanted to get in on it, I´m more than happy. I´m writing a childrens´ book, playing in a band, searching for a studio and I devote a lot of time loafing in cafes talking with friends but I only work 8 hours a week, I´ve got time for everything.
The South Pacific talk reminds me my friend Julien sez what we have for gubbermint these days isn´t brainwashing but brainstaining.
Chris #8: don´t sweat the contradictions from these blogs/newspapers/presidents, hypocrisy to these guys is a tool to drain people by enraging them. When someone someone confronts you with messages like this, just wish em well and back out of the door.
Posted by owen on from barcelona 02/18 at 03:35 PMCart...Your “Don’t you have a mother” point is well taken. I’m sorry but it made me laugh because it reminded me of the famous Barbara Bush quote, “I don’t think about all of the people we killed. Why would I bother my beautiful mind on somehting like that?” (quote is not exact)
I guess all mothers are not equal.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 03:47 PMIs persuasion dead? And if so, does it matter?
The significance of this query goes beyond the feelings of futility I’ll suffer if it turns out I’ve wasted my life on work that is useless. This is bigger than one writer’s insecurities. Is it possible in America today to convince anyone of anything he doesn’t already believe? If so, are there enough places where this mingling of minds occurs to sustain a democracy?
The signs are not good. Ninety percent of political conversation amounts to dueling “talking points.” Best-selling books reinforce what folks thought when they bought them. Talk radio and opinion journals preach to the converted. Let’s face it: the purpose of most political speech is not to persuade but to win, be it power, ratings, celebrity or even cash.
By contrast, marshaling a case to persuade those who start from a different position is a lost art. Honoring what’s right in the other side’s argument seems a superfluous thing that can only cause trouble, like an appendix. Politicos huddle with like-minded souls in opinion cocoons that seem impervious to facts.
The politicians and the press didn’t kill off persuasion intentionally, of course; it’s more manslaughter than murder. Persuasion just isn’t relevant to delivering elections or eyeballs. Pols have figured out that to get votes you don’t need to change minds. Even when they want to, modern media make it hard. They give officials seconds to make their point, ignore their ideas in favor of their poll numbers or showcase a clash of caricatures, believing this is the only way to make “debate” entertaining. Elections may turn on emotions like hope and fear anyway, but with persuasion’s passing, there’s no alternative.
There’s only one problem: governing successfully requires influencing how people actually think. Yet when the habits of persuasion have been buried, the possibilities of leadership are interred as well. That’s why Bill Clinton’s case on health care could be bested by savage “Harry and Louise” ads. And why, even if George Bush’s Social Security plan had been well conceived, the odds were always stacked against ambitious reform.
I’m not the only one who amid this mess wonders if he shouldn’t be looking at another line of work. A top conservative thinker called recently, dejected at the sight of Ann Coulter on the cover of Time. What’s the point of being substantive, he cried, when all the attention goes to the shrill?
But the embarrassing truth is that we earnest chin-strokers often get it wrong anyway.”
http://www.mattmilleronline.com/articles.php?id=145
Posted by Mudge on from Austin 02/18 at 04:00 PMWay I feel about convincing people is I don´t care what anyone believes and twould be tough shit for me if I did cause it is none of my business. I say what I say and write what I write because I feel I´d like people to have all the information I have at my disposal.
Posted by Owen on from Barcelona 02/18 at 04:13 PMMudge and Owen, About persuasion and elections. I don’t think that getting votes depends on persuasion. I predicted the winner of the last election based on the person most voters would like to go out and have a beer with. Unfortunately, sometimes voting depends more on a visceral reaction and less on a cerebral reaction.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 04:39 PM...more on a visceral reaction and less on a cerebral reaction.
The whole lifestyle we have in any developed nation is one where visceral reaction is held paramount and cerebral reaction is discouraged.
Even while ‘good consumers’ educate their young ones with leapfrog teachers instead of spending quality time with them personally, the seeds of discouraging cerebral reaction of an imaginative and thoughtful sort are being discouraged.
I understand that there are many factors which can also be mitigating due to circumstance or budget,etc., but I personally think it’s a consequence of choice that should be carefully considered before breeding:
Do you as a potential parent have the time and means at your disposal that are necessary to grow a young mind to it’s fullest potential?
Or will you will you have only the means and will to love them dearly while raising someone whom you’re teaching little more than how and what to consume?It may sound harsh, but I think parents have much to answer for individually for the choices they make after bringing new people into the world.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 06:13 PMMudge (46) those are some interesting thoughts. It’s difficult for me to reconcile relativism and absolutism. On the one hand--as Owen articulates--let each form their own opinion. On the other, if we believe in something, shouldn’t we act for it?
I have to admit that I have a problem with the mode in which we Expendables--and 99% of the rest of the people using the internet--communicate. Because of the pressure to post often, to react to the latest shenanigansof the newsworthy, to come up with new material, we cannot hold a conversation. You know, get to the bottom of something and formulate a strategy and act upon it. We start, and then tomorrow arrives and someone gets shot/bombed/lied to/spied on/whatever, and we move on (we have to in order to stay up to date).
What would happen if we all acted on the conviction that institutional murder/state terror/the systemic plundering of the earth’s gifts for the short term gain of the few etc etc etc is wrong?
Or is this anarchic conversation (here and elsewhere) the action I’m looking for?
Rosemarie (48) you couldn’t pay me to drink beer with either of the two louts from the last two quadrennial non-elections. Drinking beer is something I enjoy immensely. Why ruin it?
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 02/18 at 06:28 PM- eir I think that I sympathise with your sentiments (#50). For me, for now, this anarchic conversation is the action I’m looking for. It is energizing to find so many compatriots in support of individualism and individual thought.
I’m not certain when or where to look for further action. I’m not certain that there simply aren’t too many people for such a manner of living to be possible without violence.
If I were to wake up tomorrow with the financial means to live a life of philanthropy, perhaps I’d have a different notion of it; but for now I do what I can while retaining sanity and attempting to ensure that I always understand reality as best I can.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean about acting on our convictions?
Upon re-reading I’m not even sure that my rambling here is relevant.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 02/18 at 06:49 PM Amelopsis, I agree with your views on parenting. Too many people have children just as accessories in their lives. I have always thought that it was the most important job that anyone could have, if they did it right.
Keir, I agree that the choice of beer drinking partners makes all the difference in the world.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 02/18 at 07:11 PMHello again, Expendables. What a great thread of comments above. I’ll need more time to digest it all...but for now, I’d like to say I can relate to what Keir says in #50 but also to how the Empress responded in #51. I can think of a way to address this:
Another regular here, Luna, has asked about creating a forum for the Expendables. In other words, I could go on making daily posts here and we could go on communicating in this manner. However, to give more time and space to a particular topic, someone could then create a thread at Luna’s forum...a thread without a 24-hour expiration date. Such a forum could become a meeting place for our group where conversations could continue apace.
I offer this option with some hesitation as I do not wish to lose the daily back-and-forth we all seem to enjoy here. I know I love it and do not want to jeoparize the energy that has organically emerged here. Basically, I see a forum as a complement to this comment board and thus, a chance to really hash things out in depth.
Whaddya think, my friends?
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 07:48 PMAmelopsis I think we’re saying two different things (49 and 50). The only way I see most of my Western contemporaries reacting viscerally is--occassionally--through their spending habits. When anyone is outraged they do (or they don’t) talk about it, and the extraordinary in our culture take it to the level of writing/reporting. What about being so outraged by a certain afront to one’s moral convictions that s/he walks out of the house and does something, with their body instead of their mind. Our lovely civilization is so developed that you’re likely to be harassed or locked up (RMJ).
I’m capable of utilizing whatever literary skills I have to describe my outrage and why it is appropriately placed. I’m not so good at the next step---or I’ve lost the way lately in the comfort of a community of Expendables who are similarly outraged. Put another way: my mind is free, but my ass ain’t followin’.
Mickey: no need to let us hijack your website. I’m a skeptic, but if Luna is willing to set it up, we could give the forum a shot. If it doesn’t work, what have we lost?
3:39 here in The Hague. Tot morgen dames en heren !
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 02/18 at 09:30 PMHi, dipping back in before bed...30F out, freezing rain, and I had to go get my car back from the garage or else it would be towed.
Empress, what I mean by acting on our convictions is to avoid silent, feareful complicity. What Matt Miller means is open a dialogue with someone you KNOW disagrees with you. What we, as people of conscience should do, is both!
MZ, threaded forums are very, very shiny! THey aren’t the interaction places that this is, for better and for worse. I’d prefer to keep to the Cool Observer stuff we’re doing now, for my part.
Hasta la bye-bye
Posted by Mudge on from Austin 02/18 at 10:12 PMGoood night, all. More mystery links tomorrow.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 02/18 at 10:55 PMHow exciting, frustrating and fascinating to come to such a full board at CO after a day preoccupied with other things… all I can contribute now is not what Ahab would do, but what he’d say, either to Eddie for manipulating the demise of Mickey’s cassette, or the military-industrial complex or any number of things:
‘To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee; For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee!’.
Or was it Khan who said that?
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 02/19 at 02:09 AM
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