Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Friday, March 24, 2006
(More than) Malice in Wonderland
Wonderful perspective Mickey. Napoleon’s advice is good, and I generally agree with you. On the other hand, there is nothing “incompetent” about imagining, designing, building, and using machines of war. Evil, maybe---like you I try to avoid the term---but not incompetent.
The “evil” of the death and destruction unleashed by the political elite is usually what I think in business is called an “externality"---i.e. collateral damage. Corporations don’t intend to poison the air and water with their factories; similarly, perhaps governments don’t “mean” to kill babies when they drop bombs on them.
Hmm. I remember that during the US bombing of Serbia there was whispered talk in the mainstream press of the importance at that point in history, for some reason, of the US giving off the image of being occassionally unstable, irrational, and violent. It was an excercise in “legitimization” and you have to kill people to do that.
But then, like you, I believe we have to consider ourselves part of the “machine” or “process” of war in order to effectively work against it.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 03/24 at 07:34 AMAwesome post, man, but the problem is that you can’t go writing cool stuff like this and then ask “who needs another article?”, you just can’t have it both ways! See you later…
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 03/24 at 08:25 AMMorning Mickey, Keir, James,
How about a compromise? I think that many who’ve garnered power are guilty of Malicious Incompetence.
We each must realise that since all the corporations to whom we might ascribe the qualitiy of ‘evil’along with callous greed, thrive only because of the almighty ‘consumer’ and yes - we have to take responsibility for the ways in which we as citizens, consume.
It’s too easy not too and that’s most unfortunate.And of course James has it absolutely right - we ALWAYS need another post!
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 03/24 at 08:48 AMGood Day James, Keir, Mickey and all...great topics here to start off the day.
Keir, I think we are a very important part of the war machine. If there were enough of “us” we could change things overnight, bloodlessly, with boycotts, strikes, etc. Stopping commerce would do it.
“...Let’s face it: Hyperbole aside, Clinton, Bush, Powell, or Rumsfeld did not sit around in smoke-filled rooms and plot the wanton slaughter of Iraqi babies...they just seem indifferent to it as they pursue other goals...."//// I think I disagree a little bit here. I believe that those who are running the show in Washington (the unelected, appointed think tanks) have been brilliant. They have achieved many of their goals. There is plenty of evidence that they use the deaths of children and other civilians as a purposeful, planned strategy. Remember that much of the bombing since 1991 was to destroy the infrastructure. It was the civilian population that was most affected by the loss of safe water, electricity, etc. Magdeline Albright said it brilliantly. It is official policy that the deaths of 500,000+++ children is still worth it.Just one more point here....Too many keep saying that this is a war to bring oil to the american people. I never believed that. This is a government that will not even bring access to medicine to the people, and Chavez has to donate oil to the homeless shelters. How can anyone believe that “the people” are important to this government? It is NOT a war for oil. It is a war, partially, for the profits of oil companies. The control of the price and flow of oil is what they consider important, keeping the flow restricted and the barrel price high.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 08:48 AMHi Amopolis. We are doing “synchronized typing” again.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 08:50 AMSorry, Amelopsis about the typo.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 08:52 AMHi RMJ! “It is NOT a war for oil. It is a war, partially, for the profits of oil companies. The control of the price and flow of oil is what they consider important, keeping the flow restricted and the barrel price high” is so true. People exist to fill the coffers of the corporations.
MZ, main post...I’m about to enter a job that supports factory farming and the wanton consumption of dead animals. I am part of that system, and it’s not a problem for me join it, because I think it’s perfectly okay to eat meat and to factory-farm same.
So it is with the military industrial complex for the vast majority of people. Lockheed Marietta exists to make profits, makes them by manufacturing death-dealing weapons, and employs many tens of thousands of mortgage-havin’, credit-card-spendin’ hard workers. They see nothing wrong with what they do. Tom Lehrer had a song about Werner von Braun that kinda sums it up: “I make sure they [the missiles] go up/Who cares where they come down?”
Keir, what the devil? “...It was an excercise in “legitimization” and you have to kill people to do that.” Was I asleep at that point?! That sounds WAAAAY too honest for mainstream media.
Gorgeous day here, froze last night and going up to 65F and sunny. AAAhhh.
Posted by Mudge on from Austin 03/24 at 10:07 AMRosemarie, re #4 ("I think we are a very important part of the war machine. If there were enough of “us” we could change things overnight, bloodlessly, with boycotts, strikes, etc. Stopping commerce would do it.") --- Absolutely right. On numbers and all that I have just put up a relevant post at my place.
As for what the planners actually plan, I am certain that US warpeople intend for survivors of any conflict to not be the intelligentsia, and in many cases for them to be underfed, perhaps diseased, and in general need of an IMF loan or other sign of the benevolent hand of the West. This is also the (very often stated) intention of some architects of Israeli occupation of Palestine (turn them into the dogs you already think they are), and the effect of US adventures in Latin America. Significantly, this was also a major tactic of both Hitler and Stalin to control Poland, and I’m not throwing their names around lightly.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 03/24 at 10:24 AMMudge, I definitely heard the term “legitimization” thrown around on NPR back in ‘99. I mean, we bombed the Chinese embassy for chrissake.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 03/24 at 10:26 AMI think you are quite right, Mickey! Throwing epithets like ‘evil’ around too often does not help at all. On the other hand, I still am a ‘lesser evil’ person as regards the Dems. As I am Australian that does not matter, though ..
And ‘hi’, Keir, James, Amelopsis, Rosemarie and Mudge. A hot Saturday coming up in Daylesford - it’ll be 86F.
Ciao ..
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 03/24 at 02:22 PMHELP! Can anyone explain why when I tried to put my computer in Stand-by mode a message came up saying that I could not do that because someone else was logged on. NO ONE HAS ACCESS TO MY COMPUTER. I get that message about someone else being logged on about once a month????
Keir, very interesting article you have up at your site. You ask where everyone has gone. The protests don’t really do much good. Soon as Halliburton figures out a way to make money on protests, the government will encourage them. People need to start doing things that have an effect on the economy, especially the economy of the ruling class. The ruling class has an Achilles heel, money. The anti-war people never seem to take advantage of that.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 02:59 PMRMJ, could it be that you didn’t log off/shut down properly earlier? Is you computer on a network and/or connected to the internet?
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:00 PMNoam Chomsky Q&A on the Washington Post:
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:34 PMfrom the Q&A:
Cleveland, Miss.: Are you really so much of a stereotypical “say as I do, not as I say” liberal icon that you deride tax shelters and trust funds, all the while setting up one of your own, or is the story that’s been a hot topic on the internet the past few days a lie?
Noam Chomsky: A person who issues that charge that someone adheres to the principle “do as I say, not as I do” (the actual charge) has three options: (1) produce an example; (2) withdraw the charge; (3) take the coward’s way out and slink away silently. So far, no one has provided even a single example (if you can find one, I’d be glad to know about it and correct the practice). Thzt leaves (2) or (3). The examples you mention obviously won’t work unless you can produce a statement of mine saying that others should not do exactly what I do. You’ll find no such statement, either in the literature to which you are referring, or elsewhere. I’m omitting the many pure fabrications that accompany these charges.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:42 PMJOS, NO and NO. I am on dial-up so the computer is not connected to the internet except when I am using it. I’m not on a network and I always shut it off the same way.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 04:47 PMyou don’t have to worry about anyone else being on the computer then...it must be some sort of glitch in the standy function.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:51 PMI am almost single-handedly supporting the comments section this afternoon...anyone here about this Iraq permanent bases amendment?:
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:57 PMsomeone didn’t get the message:
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:58 PMRMJ, that’s “stand BY function” not “standy.”
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 04:59 PMThanks for the tech support, JOS
About the permanent bases in Iraq, that goes along with the plan for full spectrum global dominance. I forget the numbers now but its something like 1600 bases in 700+ countries. Except for me, no one that I know is calling for the USA to bring ALL troops on foreign soil back to the US immediately. I have called for that in some of my articles, Blum implies it, but it is mostly an ignored issue. I think that it is one of the most important issues today. I keep bringing up the issue of Diego Garcia. That is just one base that should never have been brought into existence. The original inhabitants are victims of crimes against humanity because the USA wanted a base there.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 05:16 PMright, RMJ. I though it was interesting though that congress passed an amendment AGAINST allowing permanent bases in Iraq....for some reason the link doesn’t seem to work above so here goes:
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/2993/1/32/
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 03/24 at 05:20 PMSorry I’ve missed the afternoon here - I was busy deciding whether to jump off a cliff or just shoot myself. Won’t know until next week now. (I’m exaggerating but it’s been a stressful pm)
JOS for all I know Canada’s going to help with those permanent bases...we keep finding out more of what they can’t/won’t tell us about our involvement in Iraq by the minute. It’s absolutely horrible. We are in it DEEP and there’s no longer any comfort to be taken in attempting to differentiate Canada from the US by its international presence and foreign policy.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 03/24 at 05:24 PMRosemarie I used to experience the same problem with my old computer, it was something with the standby as JOS suggested. Maybe also the way you login...with a user name or without...seemed to be linked as far as I can recall but it was never any more of a problem than the annoyance it caused.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 03/24 at 05:26 PMAmelopsis, please don’t jump or shoot. We need you here. You are our Sherlock Holmes.
JOS, I didn’t find the wording of the amendment but I believe that the bases will be there no matter what. It is interesting that this has not been even on C-span that I know of.
Canada better be careful, Amelopsis. It is morphing into the USA. Soon we will have to add another star to the flag and all of you Canadians can be without health care like we are.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 05:42 PMHello Expendables. Thanks for keeping this place hopping. I’ve been painting, carrying a zillion boxes up two flights of stairs, and then I had to rush to the ER to stay with my “Grandma” Helen until her actual grandson got there. She’s not doing well at all Now I’m gonna start doing our taxes (I do them each year to save a couple of hundred bucks). Thus, I once again can’t stay. I’ll try to stop by later to say something useful.
P.S. Empress...if you jump out a window, make it the first floor. We need you.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 03/24 at 06:19 PMMickey, I’m sending special “Get Well” thoughts to Grandma Helen.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 03/24 at 07:11 PMI have to agree with RMJ on the deliberate planning to kill Iraqi babies. Without looking up the details, I recall that the US had planned to bomb water treatment plants and other civilian facilities during the Gulf War, and then to block needed equipment to prevent reparations to the infrastructure from being made in order to pressure the Iraqi people into overthrowing the dictator to bring about the end their own suffering at the hands of America. (Larry Everest writes on that, I think, in Oil Power and Empire).
Okay, so killing babies might not be the goal, which I think is MZ’s point. But neither was it merely a matter of “indifference”. Certainly not an “accident” or act of “incompetence”. Rather, it was a means to an end. As RMJ pointed out, the “price” of half a million dead children was “worth it”, even though it didn’t bring about the desired regime change (quite the opposite). I should think “evil” was an appropriate adjective to apply to that policy, if not to the people who designed and implemented it.
As for the comment on oil, it seems a contriction to me to say “It is NOT a war for oil” and then to say “It is a war, partially, for the profits of oil companies. The control of the price and flow of oil is what they consider important, keeping the flow restricted and the barrel price high.”
On the notion of conspiracies, I often hear people ask, “You don’t really think powerful people get together in a room to plan the future of the world, do you?”
My response: “Well, where else do you think they do it?”
Posted by Jeremy on from Taiwan 03/24 at 09:22 PMI wish I could reply at length...but I gotta run. G’night, all. Bring yer stories tomorrow.
P.S. Thanks for the good wishes, RMJ.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 03/24 at 09:58 PMJust saying goodnight all,
Don’t worry, no jumping. I might have to push someone else off a cliff next week, but I’ll manage to remain intact I’m sure.
Mickey - my best wishes to Grandma Helen and with all your unsavory tasks of painting and taxes, et al.
Captcha says “congress”. hmm
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 03/24 at 11:36 PMI understand the point Mickey’s trying to make, but i think if our “leaders” were indeed indifferent to the slaughter of 1.5 million Iraqis via sanctions, that indifference in itself was malicios. When our leaders continue their vacations, and participate in photo ops while poor black people drown in the lower 9th Ward, then their indifference is in itself malicious. I just don’t think one can differentiate the two when so many lives are lost.
Posted by Harbinger on from 03/25 at 03:22 AMWelcome to the site, Harbinger. Good point.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 03/25 at 08:11 AM
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