Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Monday, April 17, 2006
Can exposure really make a difference?
Mickey, my short (-ish) answer to your question is yes, exposure does make some difference. But you know that we work to change tomorrow, not today. Sure, I would like it if the results of Bill Blum’s mainstream exposure led to FOX giving up and shutting down after everybody rejected it en masse. Thing is, I hope it makes a difference what you yourself are doing, and that’s only due (I guess) to exposure you had to the ideas of people like Blum and Chomsky and Zinn and so on. For me, add to those guys you yourself. For the next person, add what I have to say. It makes a difference.
A small difference. Too slow. Some kind of revolution/upheaval is desperately needed because the damage has been too great. But still, between you and me, a difference.
Best wishes to your folks and enjoy your visit.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 04/17 at 05:04 AMMickey...have a good trip and good wishes are sent to your Mom.
Good morning Keir.
I like today’s question. It is one I think about a lot. I have come to the conclusion that exposure does not help very much because we are trying to expose a population that has been brain-washed through years in the schools. One of the points that Churchill made in the debate with Horowitz was that the AHA had a well thought out plan for “patriotic history”. When that kind of thinking contaminates the educational process it cannot be counteracted with the few (in comparison) books such as Zinn’s. The other side wins because of its volume. And once they have won in the schools they then spread the propaganda in the media. I believe that some of the media “news” broadcasters believe the things that they say. They don’t know, what they don’t know. One of the big challenges of my life is trying to unlearn what I was taught in school. I have been working on that for years and I will never finish the job because all who have gone through almost any USA school have been so immersed in propoganda that it is almost impossible to completely overcome it. The facts are all readily available. The problem is how to get the real history taught in the schools.
BTW, today is the anniversary of the CIA invasion of Cuba. I wonder if any USA schools teach the real facts about that invasion. Just one more example of the USA invading one of its neighbors.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 07:41 AMThinking about actions that DO make a difference, below is a link to an article in a Vermont newspaper today.
http://tinyurl.com/rtmtnPosted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 08:02 AMAny interaction between two people leaves them altered in some form-- very powerful stuff if one approaches any relationship with a loving, but aware attitude.
What bothers me most is when people meet under the illusion that discourse will be fair when it is clearly not. The radical journalist Robert Jensen is unafraid to go to programs like Bill O’Reilly’s-- beacuse he feels it is important to get his message out to as many people as possible. But it is like playing with fire-- exposure can easily be twisted to making a participant look ridiculous (even though their motive may be altruistic): look at George Galloway eating out of Rula Lenska’s hand. He claims he did it as a skit for charitable reasons.
Personally, I believe in boycotting forums that are fundamentally prejudiced. One may score some points in the short run-- but one may forfeit credibility in the long term, and one also risks be influenced by bad people. As I was often told as a child:
“Don’t send good after bad.”
(Have a good vacation Mickey-- we will miss you!)
Posted by Robert B. Livingston on from San Francisco 04/17 at 08:58 AMI need to take some time to read the comments of my fellow expendables above...but some initial thoughts…
If we say exposure...getting the word out...doesn’t make a difference then we’ve got a pretty damn big problem. Then it’s over...throw in the damn towel...buy an SUV, join the marines, kill some Iraqis, build a machine that pumps poisons into the environment, shoot every animal you come across and become a racist. Let’s get this “worldwide suicide” rolling a little faster...because without a desire to fight I would just want to get the whole thing over with. But that’s just me...I’m crazy like that.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/17 at 09:48 AMHI Mickey! Hello Expendables!!
Hope your Mom does well on her tests Mickey.
I think Charlie Sheen’s exposure questioning the official version of 911 has been a good thing. In this time and place any crack in the wall lets in fresh air.
Peace and Love everyone!
Don’t give up hope. This means you JOS. ;)
Posted by Luna_C on from The Delta 04/17 at 10:12 AMMickey, thanks again, look fwd to seeing you at Seth’s. I don’t know about all this, maybe we all just have to be even more patient? Not that my patience isn’t being tried with too many other things as it is aleady. Lots of great ideas and things to read through here between documents at work tonight, off to it so see you later…
And could someone wake Mudge up already?
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 04/17 at 11:24 AMExposure does make a difference but it takes time. I only became exposed after Sept. 11th when I started to look for answers beyond the limp arguments available in the mainstream media.
After the first exposure there is a steep learning curve, but eventually it picks up speed.
First you question foreign policy, then the next thing you know you’re questioning the status quo on trade, health care, etc.
At some point you wake up to the realization that so much that passes for “news” is just propaganda.
But this realization doesn’t happen overnight. It’s very difficult to let go of the standard arguments that are presented by mainstream media. This is most obvious when you get into a discussion/argument with someone who is still “plugged in” to MSM. The reaction to a non-standard course of thought can be very agressive, almost as if people are programmed to view alternative arguments as “alien”. And it’s very interesting to watch the standard arguments thrown at you, often in a very violent fashion (even from friends).
Deconstructing the standard explanations from MSM also leads to understanding Fallacies and logic.
Posted by rob on from 04/17 at 11:46 AM“Government will always break the law, but it’s the media who drives the getaway car.” CXB, NYC Mayoral Candidate
captcha:press
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/17 at 11:49 AMhttp://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article358210.ece
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/17 at 12:08 PMHi everyone...interesting conversation going on here.
Robert B. Livingston...I like your statement that any interaction changes both . It reminds me of the Einstein rule about measurements. It also reminds me of the statement that no two people grow up with the same set of parents. Now I’ll get back on topic. In order for someone to be changed by exposure to new information that person has to somehow incorporate it into their belief system. Right? How much would any of us be changed if someone exposed us to information that was so far out of what we believe that we automatically dismissed it. If someone exposed us to information that said the sun was a molten ball of molasses it would not have any impact because we all have been so convinced for so long otherwise. That same kind of barrier exists in most of the USA population. For meaningful change to occur it will take more that just exposure to a different set of facts. It is very depressing and maybe hopeless.
The only encouraging thing I heard recently was from a native American on C-span the other day. He said that we will NOT destroy the planet because the planet is smarter than we are and IT will destroy us first, maybe just by opening a gigantic hole in the ozone.Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 02:01 PMNo doubt, RMJ, we will not destroy this planet...the planet will go on without us and our existence will be nothing more than a blip in time, remembered like some sort of bad rash that exploded about the earth’s surface for a short while and just as quickly faded away…
I also agree with this statement of yours, “How much would any of us be changed if someone exposed us to information that was so far out of what we believe that we automatically dismissed it.”
I am trying to think back to a piece of information that shocked me out of my “America Rules” reverie...and it wasn’t one thing...one radically different idea, but a series of smaller ideas that seeped into my consciousness...slowly building a foundation that I could build on.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/17 at 02:30 PMIf nothing else, some good news:
Posted by James on from work 04/17 at 03:36 PMGetting exposure does make a difference. I am a perfect example of that. Four years ago I was nowhere near being concerned about any of these issues we wrestle with every day. I just stayed clear, accepting things as fucked up and leaving it at that. Somehow I bumped into Counterpunch, and suddenly I was exposed to a vast array of web sites, authors, and issues that just made sense to me. Quite an experience. Since then I’ve spread the word. My wife, family and friends have all been contaminated to various degrees. And so it goes.
I truly think the issue is not the effectiveness of media exposure, but how we translate this exposure into action.
Posted by Cart on from near Warshington DC 04/17 at 05:02 PMIn # 11, I argue that exposure is not effective in bringing about change; however JOS in #12 reminded me of how my own transformation came about. It was a long time ago, in the early 70’s. I happened to come across one of those small, free newspapers from Amnesty International. In it was an article about US actions in Central America. I remember being shocked at what I read. My initial reaction was to not believe the article but I researched it further and that was the start of how I got where I am today.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 05:08 PMWell, I don’t really know the answer to that question, Mickey - in optimistic moments, I think that exposure does make a difference and in darker moments I don’t think so!
Have not been on the computer over Easter, so have to play ‘catch-up’ now - these days it is a bit of a tug-of-war between reading and surfing the Internet. More often than not, the Internet wins out.
And ‘hi’ to Keir, Rosemarie, JOS, Robert B. Livingston, Luna_C, James, rob and Cart - hope I have not forgotten anyone.
Here are the Dixie Chicks:http://www.columbiarecords.com/dixiechicks/mediaplayer/main_module.htmlAnd I hope you and Michele have a safe trip, Mickey. All the best to your Mum.
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 04/17 at 05:38 PMAnd Rosemarie, I soo agree with you here:
‘I believe that some of the media “news” broadcasters believe the things that they say. They don’t know, what they don’t know. One of the big challenges of my life is trying to unlearn what I was taught in school. I have been working on that for years and I will never finish the job because all who have gone through almost any USA school have been so immersed in propoganda that it is almost impossible to completely overcome it.’ Same down under.Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 04/17 at 05:40 PMHello MZ and expendables - hope all is well.
re: question—I think that exposure to radical ideas is just the first step in a long process. Understanding the arguments and ideas, seems to me, the next step, as one must counter the powerful propaganda system, and then accept or reject the ideas (imho, that is the hardest - combating the propaganda and lies).
Next is to have common/shared visions and strategies for change; something the U.S. left has never been able to pull-off to any significant extent. Finally, factor in that we have a very privileged population by relative standards, and you’re left with a tendency to preserve the status quo…
But if one can get through all that, then I feel it becomes possible to have meaningful popular action for meaningful social change. In other words, social change is a long process, perhaps more important now than ever before in history. The fact that this very conversation is possible, and that the WSF and other social forums are popping up everywhere, immigration protests taking place, etc. gives me some hope.
captcha = step
Posted by RT on from The Buyou City 04/17 at 05:41 PMCart #14 brings up an important point. We have to translate the exposure into action or else it has been a wasted effort. Right?
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 05:59 PM‘We have to translate the exposure into action or else it has been a wasted effort. Right?’
Too right, Rosemarie!And I wonder whether the expendables can click on this link:
http://www.columbiarecords.com/dixiechicks/mediaplayer/main_module.htmlPosted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 04/17 at 06:14 PMHelga...that Dixie Chicks album is important because it will appeal to the kids. Also Neil Young is doing an album that will appeal to another group. (I mostly like progressive jazz so I am not too familiar with either the Chicks or Neil Young.) The problem is that both of these musical groups probably will give the impression that all we have to do is replace Bush. Example: a Leftist, anti-war group up here is sponsoring a forum about the war. The sponsors think that they are presenting both sides because they will have a Democrat debating a Republican. They have not figured it out yet that their balanced debate will have a representative from one pro-war Party debating a representative from the other pro-war Party. Also, to me the issue is not so much about pro or anti war, but it is about Capitalism, the root of USA war. That is why I sometimes think that attacking Bush is counterproductive.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 04/17 at 06:40 PMHi all
Does the few cases of exposure mean there’s a big crack coming in the corporate media? Not a chance IMHO. The exposure for Churchill & Blum is an excellent thing, however ... why not run for prez, MZ? I haven’t got a spare $200m on me right at the moment, but surely some form of campaign could be raised with a little keyboardwork & a few PR stunts. Would Howard Stern let you do some on air work in return for having a giant stripper sit on your head? No idea, & would doubt both Michele & your good self have some reservations about that.
On a more serious note ...
All the best for your trip to Texas, & my very best wishes go with your mother.
Posted by Chris Wood on from Manchester, odd wet lovely Manchester 04/17 at 08:07 PMHello Expendables from W Land. Great to see RT and Luna back in action...and welcome, Rob (and anyone else who’s new that I may have missed). Thanks for the provocative comments. I’ve e-mailed this question to a few folks, too, e.g. Zinn, Parenti, Blum, etc. So I’m getting a very diverse set of answers.
Thanks, again...I’ll check back with y’all tomorrow.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Lone Star State 04/17 at 08:45 PMgreat idea, Mick...can’t wait to hear some of those answers.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/17 at 10:45 PMAbsolutely it makes a difference.
I was a typical ignorant American. When I came to Taiwan shortly after 9/11, I began to be exposed to different viewpoints I hadn’t been exposed to in the States. I met this guy who’d travelled a bit, and who told me about this author named William Blum who I should check out. I did, and haven’t turned back since.
Blum’s writings changed my worldview. All that need to happen was for me to be exposed to the alternative perspective, to be exposed to all the information that isn’t exactly in our history books at school.
I’ve since become a sponge. I discovered Chomsky, Zinn, Mark Curtis, MICKEY Z, etc., etc. Of course exposure makes a differenc. Maybe one individual at a time, but that’s what it takes.
Posted by Jeremy on from Taiwan 04/18 at 05:55 AMI posted that before I read others’ answers. It seems I’m not alone. It seems that several others also began seeking elsewhere for the answers to our questions since 9/11. That was certainly the point where I can say I recognized my ignorance and began seeking. It’s interesting to hear others who had the same experience.
Posted by Jeremy on from Taiwan 04/18 at 05:59 AMin the long-term (and by long-term i mean generations not the next fiscal quarter) i absolutely believe exposure does make a difference. consider upton sinclair’s “the jungle” and the present working conditions found in the meat industry. far from ideal, but i’m guessing they are certainly more humane (for the humans at least) then they were at the turn of the century. consider child-labor or the the civil-rights movement and the resulting - again progressive - legislation that was passed. yes, we are nowhere near the ideal america where every individual is equally guarenteed life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. all this means is that we must continue to move forward and, as erich fromm has said, live love and speak truth. the worst case scenario is that all of this exposure of the multitude of truths that exist in america - many of these truths being dirty little secrets - affects no change whatsoever. even then, one must continue to seek and share truth. at the very least we can leave artifacts of truth for future generations to learn from.
Posted by Daniel on from 04/18 at 08:49 AMHello all...I’m back for a minute. Let me clarify: When I say “exposure,” I don’t mean someone seeking out a Chomsky or Zinn book and reading it through. I mean an “Average Jane or Joe” clicking on CNN or FOX and suddenly getting a few minutes of Blum or Churchill in the midst of the usual stuff.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Dubya Land 04/18 at 12:54 PMwill someone tuning in to fox or cnn and seeing blum or churchill be changed - politically, intellecutally, emotionally? i see three possiblities here. 1. the left-wind ideologue. this viewer is already ideologically receptive to the ideas of the churchills and wil therefore not be changed 2. the right-wing ideologue. just as politically fixed and self righhteous as the left-wing verion and will also not be changed. the only possibility is that these two charactes will become more entrenched and certain of what they already know to be the “truth.” 3. the fence-sitter. this is the viewer that may be swayed by hearing what a blum or a churchill has to say about american policies - foreign and domestic. i think it possible that such a person can be affected by hearing unspoken, unconventional and uncomfortable thoughts, ideas and truths that rarely get any airtime on our national waves. i’m now seeing amy goodman regularly on tv playing the “left” side of the untruthy right vs. left soundbytes that passes for debate these days. on the one hand, this makes me very happy and optimistic. that such an uncompromising, strong and artculate dissenting voice can get access is a huge step forward. but the problem, i think, is the medium and not the message. (see neil postman’s “amusing ourselves to death") tv doesn’t allow for any real debate. there is only room for soundbytes and bromides. tv is a visual medium. words, ideas are secondary. the only question is: is it entertaining? shows like moyer’s “now” are wonderful and informative and courageous but they are the exception and their audience is miniscule. what can be done about this? postman argued that we can only immunize ourselves from the negative and awesome power of television by analyzing and understanding the medium of televsion and how it creates, distorts and manipulates reality and truth. i agree with postman. unless we can teach our young people to step back from the televsion and look at it and its content with a critical eye, our democracy will not survive (if it is not dead already). thanks mickey for the tireless work that you do. it matters.
Posted by Daniel on from 04/18 at 01:42 PMExposure seems to part of a controller´s gameplan too, funnily enough. Take Germany leading up to World War II where plans for massmurder were protected through violence and subterfuge and then as soon as enough of it is inflicted, the state puts its hands up sez Yep we did it all: the inciting incidents of terrorism, the disappearances, the camps, the skin lampshades. Thousands of Germans committed suicide when they discovered what they´d been cheerleading for for years - this is when the real psychic damage to the group-mind is inflicted. Michael Hoffman in Apocalypse Culture called it the Revelation of the Method, alluding to the “process wherein murderous deeds and hair-raising conspiracies involving wars, revolutions, decapitations, secret archaeo-astronomic deity cult-worship, and every manner of horrorshow are first buried beneath a cloak of secrecy...and then, when finally accomplished and secured, slowly revealed to the unsuspecting populace who watch deepfrozen as the hidden history is unveiled.”
Posted by Owen on from barcelona 04/18 at 02:48 PMYou guys might like this:
http://tinyurl.com/yqxaPosted by owen on from barcelona 04/18 at 03:00 PM
this is my favourite found article, came from a secondhand Randy Newman record in a market in Dublin, reminds me a lot of that part of my life spent there.
Posted by owen on from barcelona 04/18 at 03:06 PMThe exposure to important information has to occur if things are to improve; people informed enough to expose the unaware to information must keep trying. No generalization can be made about whether it will work or not, and in the current US social/political/educational climate, only a small number of people in the US will even be knowledgeable enough about what a fact is to respond with interest. But people have to keep trying to get info out there, especially since so many people in the US don’t read or seek out information on their own. I don’t have much hope myself, because people in the US feel pressure to conform to a sociopolitical spectrum that ranges from apolitical to right-wing, with left-wing ideas so thoroughly ridiculed by popular media that most young people with no idea what “left” means strive to distance themselves from anything “liberal” or left-wing. Stan Goff described his son recently as “aggressively apolitical” and I think that’s a good description of the attitude of much of the (especially young) US population, but it’s only been that way, in my estimation, since the 1980s, when Reagan forced the sociopolitical climate in a rightward direction. Also, you might check out Rahul Mahajan’s comments at uprisingradio.org about the audience at a recent university debate with right-wingers. He says many of the students could not even hear his ideas about what to do about Iraq, repeatedly asking him “So what’s your solution?!” even though he’d told them several times. This belligerently ignorant attitude is rife in the US these days, and I’m pretty hopeless about it. But I do know that, after the attacks of September 11, 2001, several people that I didn’t even know ever paid attention to me came to me asking where to turn for information about world events and politics. Their inquiries signaled to me that, even though I’d felt frustrated trying to wake people up, some had been listening all along. Some have since become more active. Others have become informed enough to leave the US, but at least they know more now.
Posted by deang on from Austin, TX 04/18 at 07:29 PMHello all...I’m back for a minute. Let me clarify: When I say “exposure,” I don’t mean someone seeking out a Chomsky or Zinn book and reading it through. I mean an “Average Jane or Joe” clicking on CNN or FOX and suddenly getting a few minutes of Blum or Churchill in the midst of the usual stuff.—MZ
I understand your point, but, then, how can you expect people to sit down and read a Chomsky or Zinn book unless they’ve heard of Chomsky and Zinn? How can people go out searching for alternative viewpoints unless they first know alternative viewpoints exist, such as by being exposed to them, even if only for a few minutes, on CNN or FOX?
Blum’s book sales went through the roof after his exposure. Absolutely it makes a difference.
Posted by Jeremy on from Taiwan 04/18 at 09:56 PMTalking about exposure...I think I am getting close to hitting my stride again over at Why Do They Hate US?:
http://www.wdthu.blogspot.com/
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 04/19 at 09:54 AMGood luck with your mom.
Also, I think exposure makes a difference, but it has to be repeated, repeated, repeated exposure. This is because I work and think a lot about what it takes to change ceratin human behaviors, like, for example, addiction.
Posted by Christine Hamm on from Astoria 04/19 at 03:55 PM
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