Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Friday, October 20, 2006
When "anti-war" doesn't mean anti-war
hey mick how are you iam in my 3rd week of being laid off it feels good being a bum . time to start painting after 70hr weeks of work any ideas on what i should paint?
Posted by mike conner on from rockland 10/20 at 05:24 AMExcellent point, MZ. I would add another observation to those you’ve made, regarding Afghanistan. While quite a few people I’ve spoken with were opposed to the war in Iraq from the beginning, of those most were for the war in Afghanistan.
I just talked to some guys last week who shared my sentiment on the war in Iraq, but then one of them said, “I don’t think anybody would argue that it was wrong to take out the Taliban.”
“Oh, I would argue just that,” I said firmly. “I don’t find any justice in actions in response to the deaths of nearly 3000 people on 911 that could easily be predicted beforehand to kill more innocent people than that in Afghanistan.”
“You’re in a minority,” I was informed.
“I was in a minority,” I responded when I said before the invasion of Iraq that it was an unjust war and that there was no evidence that Iraq had WMDs.”
“So what are you saying?” one of them asked.
“I’m saying that being in the minority doesn’t bother me at all.” I had lots more to say, but couldn’t manage to steer the conversation. It went off to other areas. I recall someone asking, “Why did we lost the war in Vietnam?”
“We won!” I said. They all laughed. I think they thought I was joking.
Posted by Jeremy on from Taipei 10/20 at 06:47 AMGood morning, Expendables. It’s warm but rainy here.
Jeremy: Damn, now I wish I would’ve made that Afghanistan comparison in my article. Oh well.. And I also agree that the U.S. did not lose the Vietnam War.
Rev: How about paintings of all the animals and plants recently declared extinct? The collection could be called: “Wish You Were Here” (with thanks to the Tub Thumper, of course).
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 07:13 AMFine article Mick, but for one minor detail: the Military Commissions Act is not, as you say, “draconian”. The Act is fascist. One could call it simply tyrannical but for the fact that the people behind it are so beholden to corporations.
I agree with you and Jeremy: the war makers got exactly what they wanted out of Vietnam: straight up war, with research and development on the side.
A link to get things started. The conclusion is depressing—exactly as you say, Mick: war is okay with some people as long as their party is making it—but some of the article is spot on.
Hey Mike Conner: why not paint over billboards?
Posted by Keir on from The Hague (Jackowski election hdqts) 10/20 at 07:37 AMGood morning Mike...I hope your finances hold up. The employment situation is not good. One of the myths that always gets to me is how they victimize those who are laid off or under-employed. “They” always say that if only that person had a better education...I cannot even count the number of people I know who are extremely smart, hard-working, college degreed and unemployed.
Mickey and Jeremy...Great article. Being in the minority is OK. Being the ONLY one in the whole town who sees that the Dems are part of the problem is quite an experience. The gap between reality and perception is mind-boggling. Kier’s link here explains the “why” but I don’t think there is any way to fix it. During this election season in my town there are a lot of meetings and forums sponsored by the anti-war group. Their main goal is to elect Democrats. When I remind them of the pro-war voting records of “their” Democratic candidates, it does no good. The facts don’t matter. BTW, on c-span this morning it was said that the Rendition Program for detainees was started by Clinton.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 08:11 AMGood morning one and all.
I never did understand why we feel one war can be evil and another war, just. One could argue the reasons behind a declaration of war; oppression, aggression, and on and on. But, in the end, the results are always the same. Do you think if no money were to be made, the powers that be would be as eager to engage in such carnage at every opportunity?
Posted by Canadian Observer on from 10/20 at 08:12 AMCorrection to #5...I did not mean to imply that there is any connection between being degreed and being educated.
Canadian Observer...I always thought that wars were about money, but now I am starting to think that for some, wars are about the joy they find in killing. Maybe there is a distinction between “war” from a government/capitalistic perspective and “War” from the view of some on the battlefield. Remember the comment, “The chick was in the way” (after he killed her). Our culture and military training teaches that killing is the desired goal. They kill, and then they come home to parades in their honor.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 08:57 AMGood morning Expendables. Hopefully my days of working on Wall Street are numbered. God I hate working down here! But I just got paid so I think I am going to pick up a copy of Endgame Vol. 1. The more I’ve read and explored the anti-civilization/anarcho-primitivist philosophy the more I’m down with it. It connects with me intellectually, spiritually, and even with my (I know this may sound hokey, but) inner child. I couldn’t have articulated it as a seven year old, but its really how I felt.
Posted by Brian on from Belly of the Beast 10/20 at 09:58 AMbunkum and piffle
no point. just my anarcho-primitivist raw feelings made me think that people should look those up
whats with “anti-civilisation”?
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 10:48 AMI think that anti-civilisation is a movement that sees the downward spiral as evidenced by things like the rise of this man:
http://www.tvland.com/originals/ipitythefool/
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 10/20 at 11:31 AMThe only problem with the “anti-civilization/anarcho-primitivist philosophy” is its unfortunate name. Check comments #9 and 10 for the type of reaction this label understandably provokes. My strong advice to all is to read both volumes of Jensen’s Endgame before judging these concepts.
The way I see it, civilization (or whatever word you choose for our dominant culture) is going to crash...with or without the help of anarcho-primitivists. The only question left is: How bad will that crash be?
Even captcha sez: “pay”
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 12:12 PMFair enough...I’ve read lots of Zerzan, but only Jensen articles online so far. I guess I really connect with it because it goes to the heart of what is wrong with our lives. The point seems to be not to use the hunter-gatherer as the mold we have to fit into, but to inspire us to be so much more than we are. We can call it whatever we want to. The point is, we have it within us to be SO free, and to live in a way that is deeply connected to ourselves, others, and the world around us. But yeah, I’ll read Endgame and go from there.
Posted by Brian on from Belly of the Beast 10/20 at 01:04 PMif anti-civilisation means anti nuclear (the [wrongly] supposed pinnacle of human technological development) then i am anti civilisation too
if anti civilisation means being against everyone having a hundred channels of nonsense piped into their homes, then i am anti-civilisation too.
if rebelling means you cant enjoy mozart or enjoy an oscar wilde quip because of their bourgeois tendencies then #### that as well
if just because george orwell did or said something you didnt like you cant’t respect him then #### your attitude too.
if all you can do is isolate yourself in your own activist ghetto and convince yourslef of your own righteousness then what are you actually achieving?
if anti civilisation means anti mcdonalds, anti smart bombs, anti war for profit, anti war for aggression, anti IMPOSITION
then i am anti civilisation
but if anti civilisation means anti technology
then i am not
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 01:18 PMmichael...maybe anti-civilization means anti-some technology. I think it would be a good thing if we could uninvent some technology, such as nuclear power plants, some factory farming techniques, ....I am not even exactly sure if the wheel should be uninvented. I have to think about that one.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 01:43 PMa popular refrain…
“science doesnt know everything”
how long did it take you to figure that one out?
science does not know everything.
however, it does know enough for the building you are in now to be standing up.
it does know enough for you to have a strictly vegam diet and keep yourslef healthy
it does know enough to visit the parts of your family that live that thousands of miles away relatively quckly.
so what do you want to do?
stop science or stop profit based science?
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 01:47 PMMichael: I strongly suggest you re-think your approach here.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 01:59 PMrmj - i just did a 500 word response to that and fucked up posting it so i am sorry
next post i will try to reconstruct it
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 01:59 PMwhy?
out in the open is gooooooodddd
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 02:00 PMAs I type this comment on my computer and into the World Wide Web I have to say that I am anti-technology because it is a completely un-sustainable enterprise. In other words, we die unless we learn to live without it.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 10/20 at 02:00 PMMaybe there is a third option...stop that element of science that exists outside the framework of “conscience”. I recall reading about some of the conversations that took place among those scientists who developed the first atomic bomb. One of them had a momentary crisis of conscience and dealt with this question. I am not opposed to all science and/or technology. Some advances in the medical field have been improvements but even there, there are issues. What good are advancements in medicine if only those with money can have access to them?
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 02:03 PMMichael, you are making this personal and it is not appreciated. Maybe you should log off and come back when you’re in a different frame of mind.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 02:04 PMHi JOS...we were symultyping.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 02:10 PMI didn’t really intend to spark a debate here, and certainly not any hostile reactions (coming from a place of pure assumption, no less). I just wanted to share a little of my thoughts of the day from desolation of my office cubicle. I did pick up a copy of Endgame today, and can’t wait to start.
I will, however, privide this link:
http://www.primitivism.com/future-primitive.htmEnjoy!
Posted by Brian on from Belly of the Beast 10/20 at 02:22 PMi did not mean to denegrate anyone at all
post 15 was an afterthought to what i had already posted. it certainly isnt a ‘#### you’ to post 14.
we can’t uninvent tho. what we can do is try to encourage a culture where human ingenuity is directed toward beneificial or at the least a benign end.
i just took some liberties here. i figured that after a year or so of conversation and agreeing on the basic points we could push the boat out a bit on minor ones.
oh well. more fool me it would seem.
when i said “a popular refrain” i meant it as that, a thing a lot of people say.
i did not mean as an attack on anyone
mickey, you yourself have been attacking a lot of people recently
(with some justification) as being ineffective.i wasnt going anywhere near that sort of vitriol.
i wasnt suggesting any previous poster would make this point i just get annoyed with - just like derrick jensen.......
sorry, thats the next post..........
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 02:28 PMI think michael was drunk typing and didn’t mean to offend anyone.
Hi RMJ!
and hi to everyone else as well…
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 10/20 at 02:29 PMor not (on the drunk typing), sorry michael.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 10/20 at 02:31 PMMichael, this isn’t about you not being free to take liberties here. Any objective reading of your comments today suggests “vitriol” far more than any “attacks” I have launched.
I’ll repeat my point: The term “anti-civilization” does not do justice to what folks like Jensen are saying. Thus, I suggest we put aside any visceral reaction to that term and give Jensen a read.
Nothing personal. No vitriol. Just my opinion.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 02:35 PMok
i am utterly vitriolic toward ideas that dont base themselves in logic, that is my prejudice.
i was simultyping with rmj on #14 and #15 amd there was no malice whatsoever
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 02:43 PMFor the sake of clarity, which idea expressed here today, as you see it, is not based in logic?
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 02:52 PMit is a matter a cumulative frustration that we are all currently experiencing,
rmjs way of dealing with it is standing for election.
mickeys current way of dealing of it is railing against mainstream protests
jos previously railed against it by cutting off all comments to his blog
keir is dealing with with it.... well.. superbly
this is all very counterproductive and ver derpessing but i dont think mentioning it need be so
Posted by michael on from exile 10/20 at 03:47 PMCorrection here michael...my participation in an election is just a very tiny blip in the course of my daily activities. I had been asked to be the candidate for the US Senate. I declined that but accepted the nomination for State Attorney General because of the unique aspect of that job. Before I was a “candidate” and after the election is long forgotten, the concept of Justice will be a motivating force in my life. To me, that might be the most important of all human values. As a private citizen, I have been a witness to the miscarriage of justice, not only in my own life, but also in the lives of many others. Vermont has been called a “Bill of Rights Hostile State” by one victim. He was barred from even being on the parking lot of any courthouse in the State because he had painted a message on his car. After many years, and only after his case was taken by a Civil Rights group did he receive any justice. Justice is like water. You don’t miss it, until you realize that you don’t have any.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/20 at 04:38 PMIndeed, RMJ. I’m not sure what Michael’s post #30 has to do with the question I asked him in #29...but I’m very sure it has little to do with how any of us “deal” with anything. Anyway, I’m more than happy to drop this topic for now and pick it up again at some other time...especially since I’m going out for the night now and will thus miss any ensuing comments until much later.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/20 at 04:54 PMI don’t know...this seems better dealt with now.
My problem with michael’s comments are mainly with his opinions of Mickey and RMJ. I came to this place because Mickey Z’s words drew me here like a salmon is drawn back to it’s mating ground. He is absolutely right that mainstream protest is completely absurd. I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, I’ve watched it’s results. Nothing. Thank you michael, for inspiring me...I will write about each topic you raised today.
Please do not ever believe that all that Rosmarie Jakowski does is run for office. That is insulting and ridiculous. I only hope that you are extremely intoxicated and if so I will forgive AND forget. Forgetting is emphasized because in that situation, I feel all are pardoned. I will write about Rosmarie as well...just give me time to formulate in words what I believed was obvious to all of us here to begin with.
michael, you are one of the most interesting people I have “met” here at Mickey’s and that is saying an incredible amount. Let’s have our say and hear eachother.
Posted by JOS on from my brother's apartment 10/20 at 08:39 PMSorry Rosemarie...for my poor spelling.
Posted by JOS on from my brother's apartment 10/20 at 11:01 PMGreat articles on the 19th. I am still reading these as I get time. Very interesting stuff. Thanks!
Posted by David on from Louisville KY 10/21 at 06:17 AM
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