Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Tuesday, May 01, 2007
What exactly would change if Cheney (or Bush) were impeached?
I know you are right Mickey, its all elaborate theater. And I know the bill to withdraw troops from Iraq is a sham, a ruse that leaves the mercenaries, and 50,000 support troops in place. The air war will intensify. I know Canada is no different.
Corporatism is above the law, and it sucks.
Good morningPosted by frances on from spectacular color against an overcast sky 05/01 at 09:21 AMI think it would result in the Democrats winning the White House in ‘08, with a candidate like Hillary who is little different from Bush/Cheney. Suddenly awash in contributions from the war-profiteers, the Dems would find ways to prolong our presence in Iraq just long enough to gen up a war with Iran, shifting focus to the “real” threat in the “War on Terror.” Restoring civil liberties will be the lowest priority, now that such power can be used by the other right wing party. The press will talk endlessly about all the “change” in America, while most Americans will just give up, knowing that nobody in DC gives a damn about them and what they think or want or need.
Posted by Thomas McCullock on from Colorado Springs 05/01 at 10:06 AMI agree with what you say completely. But in your eagerness to attack Impeachment Drive you shouldn’t have ridiculed Kucinich. Why call him “alleged progressive”? He is indeed a very good representative. Maybe he does some stupid things, But it is very unfair to imply he is not a progressive, At least that’s what I think.
Posted by Ajit on from 05/01 at 12:45 PMHello Expendables. It’s sunny in Astoria...but rain is on the way.
Ajit: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0711-01.htm
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 05/01 at 01:09 PMI don’t know, I think the Nixon impeachment set back full-scale imperial war-making a couple decades and that’s a good thing. Impeachment creates a slight Pavlovian disincentive for the ruling class to begin open colonial wars for about a generation, until the general voting public has forgotten just what cannibals the rulers really are.
It doesn’t prevent covert or backdoor wars like Central America in the 1980s, but it does keep the exercise of large-scale invasion in check for a brief while. Those are lives worth saving, I say.
Posted by Joe Dub on from Albuquerque 05/01 at 02:37 PMA little more than a year after Nixon’s resignation, the U.S. gave permission for Indonesia to invade East Timor. 200,000 died. The beat, as they say, went on.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 05/01 at 02:54 PMHi Thomas, Mickey, Ajit, Joe and all others…
From last night Joe of Maine #13...I agree with your choice of desirable smells. Have you ever noticed how some beer smells like skunk?Has Venezuela just announced that it will no longer do business with the World Bank and the IMF ?
frances...I agree. The corporations have won, and the people of the planet have lost. Impeachment, bringing all the troops home, votes and elections, it’s all theater...a tragedy written in the blood of children. When the desire for peace overwhelms the desire for justice, all of humanity pays a heavy price.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 05/01 at 03:41 PMHey Mickey and crowd, I haven’t had much chance to stop by here lately, but whenever I do, I read wonderful and interesting things. Today, no exception, only as it feels like what you are talking about is “justice”, it made me sad.
Posted by Peter (the other) on from California 05/01 at 03:54 PMPeter...Did my comment make you sad? If so, I am sorry or maybe everyone should be sad. I was thinking about the Fisk photos of the Iraqi children and how too many anti-war folks are too willing to overlook war crimes in an effort to just “make nice”. Damn, I do like those Dixie Chicks lyrics...NOT READY TO MAKE NICE.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 05/01 at 04:30 PMRosemary, I am sad for my cynicism. I do not believe in “justice” anymore. Or, at least, I am not sure what the word really means. I do know that my heart has hoped for it, ever since the childhood fairy tales that made me believe there was such a thing. What is “justice” to those who are dead? What could happen to Bush and his crew, that would be “justice” for the 30-750k dead (according to differing sources). How about the 3.5million Vietnamese, Salvadorans, Nicuaraguans, Timorese etc. etc. Pinochet died at home. An ex-girlfriend of mine reported of being at a dinner with Henry Kissinger, “he’s sooo sexy” (puke). Maybe if one thinks about “justice” too much, it starts becoming about “revenge”. As to letting the assholes off the hook, sometimes one might have to for ones own inner state.
Posted by Peter (the other) on from California 05/01 at 04:53 PMConstitutional EFFICACY.
Posted by Vic Anderson on from Eagle Lake, FL 05/01 at 04:59 PMThe way I see it there is so much war and interference going on with Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Pakistan...the list goes on and on. Then there is all the stuff happening here...Where the hell does one start to even address any of the issues.
Bringing Bush and Cheney and others to account is a good start, but it must be in context to the bigger picture. They are puppets of the corporate pirates that are in the process of highjacking our planet. They are operating outside of the law, and are creating the rules as they go along. Sort of like what my daughter did a few years ago...for a while she decided the rules didnt apply to her and just did what ever she wanted to. And she was in self- destruct mode. No amount of threats of being grounded or privileges denied worked to control her behaviour. Whatever system we had in place became obsolete and I was left to come up with some other way of relating with and seeing both our family and my daughter. I found I was enabling the dysfunction by clinging to the old system...long story short, she is healthy and happy and will graduate next year.
What I am trying to say is the established rules wont work with people who refuse to observe them.
This is what has led to violent uprisings and revolutions in the past...I am holding out for a more consciously evolved solution.
Thanks for letting me ramble.Posted by Frances on from bc, canada 05/01 at 05:20 PMPeter...I agree that justice is rare in the usa, partly because there is no mechanism to provide it. The court system is a sham and not really dedicated to seeking justice. Somewhere along the line, I once wrote that, “...When justice does prevail, it is not because of, but it is in spite of the system...”. The point that you make in comparing “justice” to “revenge” is very interesting. Maybe the difference between “justice” and “revenge” is that the purpose of the former is doing something for the victims and/or their survivors: as opposed to “revenge” which is more focused on the victimizer. There is overlap though, and sometimes it is important to hold people responsible for their actions. I don’t understand why the majority of people on the planet are not demanding war crimes trials now. Also, since the citizens of the usa are complicit by paying taxes and supporting the war economy, all usa products should be subjected to a world-wide boycott.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 05/01 at 05:20 PMWhat exactly would change if Cheney (or Bush) were impeached? NOTHING...There would simply be a shift of bullshit in the media...and while we’re distracted by that crap...the 2 criminals mentioned above will be planning dirty deeds as usual...nothing would change the system for the wealthy, by the wealthy, defined by the wealthy...how medieval!
Posted by joe of maine on from 05/01 at 05:36 PMWhatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it.
--Mohandas GandhiPosted by mexicodoug on from Mexico 05/01 at 06:57 PMMexico Doug, as much as I deeply respect the Mahatma, that quote taken out of context is simply specious. A good argument for doing what one wants. It is, also, illogical. A question, is not inaction a choice, and there for an action?
But we agree anyway. My question becomes, who is the judge? I am not religious, but I suspect that I have to take on the job of forgiving if I take on the job of judging. Violence only brings violence, this is 100% proven by world history, and the reason the USA will go down in a war or revolution. Its end is predicted by its birth. Something has to change, and maybe I will start with me. Tonight I will try my hardest to think one nice thing about each and every war criminal I can list from the last fifty years. Wish me luck
Posted by Peter (the other) on from California 05/01 at 07:30 PMJust heard on the news that GW Bush has vetoed the bill which sets deadlines for withdrawal of troops from Iraq as proposed by the Dems. On the other hand: I quite agree with you, Mickey - unfortunately!
Have got to run but wanted to call in at the ‘Cool Observer’s’ site for at least a few minutes.
‘Hi’ to Frances, Thomas McCullock, ajit, Joe Dub, Rosemarie, Peter (the other), Vic Anderson, Joe of Maine and mexicodoug. Take care, all of you.
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 05/01 at 09:43 PMHello Expendables and guests. I’ll be leaving this post up today but there will be something new tomorrow. Until then, the beat goes on:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/may2007/lead-m02.shtmlPosted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 05/02 at 04:28 AMI think we should all be very aware that what we are going through now in the western world is what the french call a “rappel a l’ordre”, i.e. a return to order. in europe that means ms merkel in germany, who is a kind of latter day ms thatcher, now in france mr sarkozy, aping our mr. reagan and in britain mr. brown following in the footsteps of the as always perfidious mr. blair. here in the us we have a fake democratic party soul searching on the iraq attack, to placate any unease felt by the public about this attack. the power holders are afraid of a united populace (as macchiavelli describes for the prince to feign concern about public opinion to keep any rebellion down). in the process maybe some flunkies are sacrificed, that is part of the power game. but there again like the frenchies say: “plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme chose” (the more it appears there is change, the more it remains the same allover again). do not be decieved by the propaganda, hopeful it may appear to be. the same powers just don a different mask…
Posted by wim voetpad on from 05/02 at 07:01 AMthanks for the update Mickey.
Is it really a democracy when the results of debates and open demonstrations and talking only result in this http://tinyurl.com/293akgPosted by frances on from bc 05/02 at 09:06 AMHey Mickey you’re not wrong about the beat going on whether impeachment or no. Kucinich lost me in 2004 when he stuck with the blue wing of the Capitalist Party. I’m sick of him trying to “pull the dems left”. Why doesn’t he try to pull a third party out of obscurity? Not that that would make a whole lot of difference. A little, maybe. Kucinich’s message is so out of touch with the Democrats that he (and a handful of others) are de facto members of another, as yet unnamed party.
Anyway: as long as there are people who call themselves “Democrats” and think their shit don’t stink, talking impeachment is a perfectly nice thing for them to do.
Posted by Keir on from the hague 05/02 at 09:53 AMAs long as we know that the regime cannot afford to admit defeat in the iraq attack, whether from democrats or republicans, we will have no choice. obama is the successor to powell and rice, fully funded by vested interests (foolish dean thought he could make it from the internet), clinton is easy meat for a losing alternative, mccain to remind the electorate what it is all about and it will be business as usual, a new face with the same tunes but different words in 2008, unless another world trade center blowback strikes again, in which case bin laden cum suis will achieve what they set out to do, namely make this country a fortified totalitarianism with a fast decline of power. only a spontaneous refusal of the whole population to go along with the status quo may avert either fate, but for that one needs to shred the new york, washington and los angeles times, the washington post and the wall street journal and to turn off all television masts like on the above mentioned horrid event at the world trade center.
Posted by wim voetpad on from 05/02 at 10:37 AMBtw, I’ve added a link to the main post, re: Rage Against the Machine.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 05/02 at 10:45 AMOne cannot preach to the multitude, they would reject the boring repetitions. The only way to get through is by making them laugh, so real biting satire is very scarce here. ridicule is a very forceful weapon. another way to encourage people is through rousing songs, like once the french marseillaise, which has in fact very bloody revolutionary words, so now there are revisionaries in france who want to ban it. that is why rage against the machine (which contains a two-fold message) should be listened to. subliminal messages will also help though often not recognized. if one can replace a slowly rising resentment amongst the public by a hopeful passion,
that is the question....Posted by wim voetpad on from 05/02 at 11:17 AMHi everyone. Great discussion going on here, as usual.
Peter # 16… I agree with much of what you say. Your gentleness and compassion are obvious; but, in response to your comment, “...I have to take on the job of forgiving if I take on the job of judging...” It seems to me that the only ones who can give real forgiveness are the victims. Again, I think of the slaughtered Iraqi (and other) civilians. I cannot “forgive” for that. Only the victims can forgive. I can only “judge” and hope that someday justice will be rendered. I know that the hope for justice is might seem unrealistic. Expecting justice is unrealistic, but hoping for it is not.Keir...Kucinich lost me in 2004, too. Some Vermonters understand why and how Washington creates political perverts. We sent a dedicated, long-term Socialist down there, and got back a Democrat.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 05/02 at 11:43 AM“Never be deceived that the rich will permit you to vote away their
wealth.” - Lucy ParsonsPosted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 05/02 at 12:23 PMi don’t think a lot would happen
what about a different question?
what if bush and the bLIAR were tried for war crimes?
Posted by michael on from scotland 05/02 at 05:39 PMMichael #27...good question...one I hope we can ask soon…
Posted by joe of maine on from 05/02 at 06:47 PMThanks for the update, Mickey - and thanks for your link to the anti-Sarkozy petition which I have already forwarded to several ‘francophiles’, as well as for everything else on your blog.
It has been raining for the last few hours here but the water levels at various reservoirs are still at a 40-year low. We have been having car trouble, and a new car will only be delivered on Wednesday, so Mr Helga is stuck in Melbourne.
A warm ‘hello’ to all those expendables who have commented since I last called in at the site. An expanding family of expendables.
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 05/02 at 06:59 PMHello to the expandng Expendables (I like that one, Helga). Michael, war crime trials would be a good start but not if they let the opposition parties off the hook.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 05/02 at 09:05 PMQuestions: in a war crimes trial who would be the judge? What country would host the trial? Who has the capital $$ to fund the trial? What big business stands to benefit? or lose? Things are going to have to get a wee bit nastier I think before we see this happen… maybe I am dooming and a glomming again....
captcha says firePosted by frances on from bc 05/02 at 09:29 PMDoes anybody know who gained the most$$ the last series of war crime trials?
Posted by frances on from bc 05/02 at 09:34 PMI fully agree with Peter’s ideas. Unfortunately in the last thirty years all protests have been successfully contained. no more wild excesses nor enthusiastic freedom of expressions. voluntary incarceration has lost any effectiveness if it had any at all. demonstrations are regulated by police and military, their participants often penned in like cattle as happened in new york. the movement has been successfully gelded by successive administrations and bush put the last nail in the containing coffin by declaring that demonstrations would never sway him. in fact he was more honest about this than his predecessors, because the regime does not have to fear any longer uncontrollable uproars. what is left then is lateral hostility as there is no longer a valid and hope giving outlet for anger and frustration about oppression. the violence turns inward amongst domestic and street aggression. the constant progressive writings critical about mischief and corruption with resourceful and painfully acquired documentation is directed at the already converted, not therefore as it were centrifugally fertile. what to do then about a change of venue, a new direction for those who are at odds with the status quo ? that is why I offered my previous comments as our only option is to revive joy in the productive denial and the happy defiance in the face of stone walls (to mix my metaphors). the value of the sixties did not rest on the conception that this was a revolt of white middle class youth, but on the well nigh irrepressable spirit of hope and indeed fun in making revolution (or whatever that was understood to be) and that is why it was so dangerous to the invested powers. we can only be successful in what we aim at, is if we can inspire the indifferent and deflated present day youth with the ideals of a possible new world, not as huxley saw it, but on purely humanitarian and compassionately inspired grounds, not so easy a task but surely worth doing.
Posted by wim voetpad on from new york 05/03 at 04:00 PMGood points.
But then . . . .
What to do?
Is it revolution or nothing? Or what?
Posted by Frann on from Portland, OR 05/04 at 11:20 AMdear frann in portland, revolution would be the only option, but of a different kind than the french or russian ones. the problem is that capitalism is admired and aped everywhere, from china to the east european countries and still in most of south america. the material ‘advantages’ have been so well propagandized that the images of the countervailing existence of the poor are never seen either here or abroad. aside from which capitalism forces a materialistic mind set on the people, which does not allow for true empathy or disinterested altruism and everybody becomes a law unto themselves, described by the philosopher leibnitz as ‘monads’, a sort of isolated nuclei that repel rather than attract eachother. however since we are all animals, a residue of what was called humanism remains in each of us and though we may act hard and unforgiving and selfish, in our own mind’s eye we are perfectly aware what the present system forces us to be and do (and here I refer to what keir wrote about being paralyzed rather than helping a suffering human being near him). that is the revolution I speak of, namely a break-down
in our performance which also existed in the so-called sixties crowd of young people. the young are now dispirited, cynically passive and without hope. that is the reward of having been forcefed into this late capitalist system, which becomes progressively more cruel and corrupted. in america it starts to eat at people, from the immorality of the graft, the shamelessness of the rich with which we are daily confronted on the small screen and in glossy magazines to the total lack of self determination as promised to us in the declaration of rights. that is why this country is a potential revolution catalyst and the self assertion taught by the system itself as a method for survival will help to bring about changes in perception and ultimately society itself. that this is not a pipe dream is proven by the large religiosity movement, which indicates the ill at ease of people within themselves. that they seek it in conventional outlets at present because they are caught in a materialist straight jacket will not prevent these attempts to find meaning from radiating beyond to other areas of their lives later because even though one may scoff at the crowds seeking forgiveness and enlightenment, it is a true sign of a general dis-ease with the system in which we live now. rather than denigration we should re-direct their efforts. much like not subjecting ourselves to too much despair as often expressed on internet leftist websites. that is counter revolutionary because it keeps us hypnotized to the wrongs rather than exerting a joyful powerful refusal to perform as demanded. frankly when I read the very well informed and witty book by jeffrey st. clair,’ grand theft pentagon’, I get to laugh and say: ‘nu, what else is new’ (I live in new york city so I think sometimes in jiddish), because we are all aware of what goes down there in washington and how the nation is perennnially ripped off. we miss the means of resistance because those are held by the power authorities, but if we refuse in mass to jump, and laugh in their faces (or say, playfully place roses in their muskets), they become powerless. once the people are able to realize that strength is in numbers and in being too calm and secure in ourselves (not having possessions) to be brainwashed, they become invincible and cannot be hoodwinked any longer. all this may seem polyanna-ish to many, who will say the world is cruel and too reality driven, but what has violence ever accomplished, but bring more violence ? you do not have to be passive, refusal can be harsh and dangerous too, but it is a start and if more people will follow it, it will become a weapon to defeat any elite. and it can happen here....Posted by wim voetpad on from 05/05 at 04:28 PM
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