Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Monday, May 18, 2009
Veggie Pride Parade photos (and other food for thought)
Great photos Mickey, James, Keir, Charles. It’s too bad the american flag got into the last photo.
Mike from Cariboo, #14 from previous post makes some interesting comments about soil and nitrogen of which I know nothing about.
I do come back to the subject of ‘imbalances’ created by man-made economic systems and their numerous pitfalls and crimes.
Before we started to screw up the planet, how did soil obtain sufficient nitrogen, drawing from a number of sources, the air, plants, animal droppings etc.?
Today, how are the imbalances being compensated for? From what I understand, nutrients in the soil for healthy crops is a very complex, always changing study. I can only imagine how man-made toxins and greed induced methods effect the interrelationship of all the components required for life.
Posted by joe of maine from East of West Side on 05/18 at 08:06 AMMORNING .. JOE JOE & MICK ... love the photos—they’ll look great on the HOMELAND SECURITY “4 MOST WANTED” LIST—in the Borough of MANHATTAN—DATELINE ---: FOR ATTEMTING TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH—KILL THE MEAT CARTEL—use SOAPNUTS .. PLANT GREEN—etc etc --
THAT JAMES GUY FROM HELL’S KITCHEN LOOKS uniquely nefarious! (love ya-- James --)
http://tinyurl.com/cnxnq6 THE “ORIGINAL” PROTEST SONG—A BLACK REVOLUTION THANG FROM THE 50’S .... DONT TALK BACK—THE COASTERS ..
richie
Posted by richie from st james city, florida on 05/18 at 08:31 AMgreat pics...very cool.
Anybody see the special on Bruce Lee last night?
Posted by JOS from Chicago on 05/18 at 09:46 AMHi Mickey,
I read the links to the Lierre Keith reviews. It’s really hard to pass judgement on a book before reading it, so I’ll try to suspend my judgement of it at this time. As with Mark Hand, I probably won’t like the parts that mock vegans or vegetarians as I really don’t see the point of this. Like I mentioned earlier, we have some fine friends (healthy, strong, intelligent) who don’t eat meat, so it will take some serious convincing for me to accept that vegetarianism is bad for one’s health.
One of the commenters to Mark’s somewhat favourable review wrote: “I grew up on a low environmental impact farm producing a wide variety of vegetable crops and I know, first hand, that it is possible to feed many people, more sustainably and healthily on 10 acres of land, without intensive livestock use and while building and maintaining soil health...” I couldn’t agree more. Concentrated animal feeding operations are fucked. All I ask is this: if you want to eat organic vegetables in the 21st century, how do you ‘realistically’ build and maintain the soil without animals? And if you have a small area, and thus a small herd (of whatever), how do you control the herd without occasionally killing an animal? Next time you’re at the Farmer’s market buying a nice bunch of organic swiss chard or head of cabbage, simply ask the farmer if they spread manure. Thanks Mickey for being open to the discussion! No hard feelings anybody. Let me have it!Posted by Mike from Cariboo, BC on 05/18 at 10:06 AMHello Expendables.
JOS: Didn’t see the Bruce special. Any good?
Rich: Thanks for a good laugh.
Joe and Mike: I also haven’t read Lierre’s book and I’m hardly well-versed in technical agro-issues so I can’t say I’ll be a major player in any debate on this topic. At least, not for now. It has inspired me to learn a little more about how to answer those who bring up such concerns, re: vegetarianism.
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/18 at 10:59 AMMike, 4, Hi Mike. I don’t know if this is the best answer to maintaining soil, but it can help to compost and plant legumes as cover crops. Rotate crops, apply organic fertilizers.
The above came from an organic grower who has a farmer bring cow manure occasionally. She also goes to the bay, when possible and brings back a truck load of seaweed for the soil.
If animals are involved as pets or to have for manure, certainly a person’s feelings for the animal comes into this as your relationship to the animal develops.
Anything we do is in relationship to how this planet has been fucked up. Years ago, people thought every manufacturer of health food store products were ethical...until they discovered the parent company of an organic oil producer made Abram army tanks.
Mickey, I forgot to ask; did you apply for and receive authorization from the pope so you could say the word fuck in the church you spoke at?
Posted by joe of maine from The 3rd row from there on 05/18 at 11:49 AMI LOVE the fact that Mickey Z and Derrick Jensen, two writers who I deeply respect and who are passionate about sustainable, harmonious living, who are willing to raise their voices and say uncomfortable things, and who can share a stage and engage an audience together, disagree on something so fundamental as food.
I LOVE the fact that we do not have to walk lock step with each other, but that we know there are various ways to live a sane, compassionate, respectful and respectable life.
I LOVE the fact that in these discussions we have there are not binary choices (you are with us or against us, Pepsi/Coke), but rather a whole spectrum of ideas and ways of being are represented and thoughtfully argued.
The idea that veganism or vegetarianism or a sustainable diet that includes meat are always right or wrong for everyone is crazy, invasive, and myopic. Fortunately, I have never heard this said or written by either Derrick or Mickey, who both inspire readers to examine their choices, what they care for, and what they fight for.
Posted by keir from here and there on 05/18 at 12:01 PMJoe: I can’t think of a better statement than the one you just used to describe our current state of affairs. “Anything we do is in relationship to how this planet has been fucked up.”
The more I think about it-and I do daily-the term ‘sustainable agriculture’ is an oxymoron.
When I used to live by the ocean, seaweed was indeed a big help, but even then I used to walk around, bucket in hand, collecting cow and horse turds. Another animal that could be of massive future importance is the draft horse. It shits, it works, and you typically don’t kill them and eat them. Our neighbours grow six acres of ground crops using a team of horses. They also have pigs and chickens, but perhaps if he scaled things down he could just rely on horse and green manures. This brings up the ethics of using animals to do heavy work, but in my estimation it’s a more ethical and hopefully sustainable option than using fossil fuel consuming tractors.Posted by Mike from Cariboo, BC on 05/18 at 12:09 PMMick (#5)...it was good, I never realized how influential he was to body builders and the UFC. The guy was way ahead of his time.
Posted by JOS from Chicago on 05/18 at 12:19 PMHi Helga (from yesterday), JOS, Mike, Keir, joe, Mickey, richie, and all…
Great photos there… You all (except Mickey) look nothing like I have been imagining. What a handsome group!
Mike...thanks for making us think. For me, the misuse of animals is the big issue - and so I guess killing them for food presents a moral dilemma, as is using them for work. But, I guess that that is less of a moral infraction than using animals for entertainment such as in the circus, horse racing, etc. I am not opposed to family operated dairy farms and/or poultry farms. I use milk and eggs. I am not sure where that puts me on the moral scale - I guess not as high up as those who use no animal products.
keir #7...Good statement there. It is a good thing we don’t have to walk in lock step - That is something the Expendables would never do.
Posted by RMJ from Ward Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts on 05/18 at 01:04 PMMy problem with the use of meat in the modern diet is the relationship with the source, rather than the eating of meat per se.
As a teenager I was introduced to hunting through family friends. This led to an evolution of my ideas over a period of maybe a decade. I learned a lot about the environment and nature (sadly there is truth to the argument that environmental protection was most propagated by hunters - they were the first to demand these protections, at least in Europe, as they needed a target...). I mastered numerous methods of hunting (ferrets, snares, bow, crossbow, rifle, shotgun, coarse fishing - I only fly-fished a couple of times, and “tickling” fish) and found it empowering to “source my own meat”.
Over time, the act of killing changed me. Initially I didn’t care about the death of a creature by my hand, the thrill of the process was all I recognized. A couple of my “mentors” had a very different relationship with the act of hunting, much closer to the First Nation idea of entering into a pact with the prey - by taking a member of the species it becomes your job to help the remainder. This sense of the entwined relationships of hunter and prey evolved in me over several years, it was never taught directly. When I finally “got” it, others with the attitude vocalized their feelings - not before.
Once I developed this trait I could no longer participate in any form of “organized” hunting. I could only hunt for personal consumption and over time began to prefer not finding a suitable target. This is where I am now (for the last 15 years or so). I don’t hunt, though I would if circumstances demanded it.
Interestingly my father had the same experience as a youth and gave up hunting, but let me find it myself. He didn’t dissuade me and didn’t talk to me about the act of killing until I had my own experience and determined my own views.
The point of all this is that I developed a deep relationship with living creatures. I still eat small quantities of meat, but I am very picky about sources - I want to meet and get a sense of the farmers that are the source of my meat...I wont eat anything from a factory, raised with chemicals, in fact anything that has had much stress in it’s life (and that includes the slaughter techniques). Every year I get closer to vegetarianism.
I think that in the “civilized” world, people have lost this connection and view meat as any other “product” available on the shelves, and this is one of the dehumanizing experiences of modern life. I have long believed that if one wishes to eat meat, one should at some point have to experience hunting, killing, gutting, skinning and cooking a prey creature. Even better would be that you have to kill and prepare the creature every time you want meat. This might bring balance to the equation (though admittedly there are a lot of severely disconnected individuals out there who may not grow through this process).
Additionally, I have known quite a few vegans and macrobiotic proponents who have had serious health issues related to a lack of animal proteins in their diets, resolved when they went back to meat. I also know many who have not had these problems. My take on this is thus: some people require more, others less...I don’t think that there is anything like a one-size-fits-all diet (or anything else).
...captcha says dr…
I don’t know anything about the Weston Price Foundation mentioned in the links about Keith’s book, but I am familiar with the actual original studies by Dr Weston Price (a dentist). They make VERY interesting reading. The upshot of it all is that the most important thing is ORGANIC, LOCAL, SEASONAL, produce - I further suspect that the relationship that the consumer (used in the old sense) has with their food is also of importance.
Apologies for the rant - I have spent a LONG time (decades) thinking about this, and rarely get a chance to pontificate…
Posted by subgenius from hell-A on 05/18 at 02:04 PM.....And a massive hello to all on the thread; past, present, and future....
Posted by subgenius from hell-A on 05/18 at 02:05 PMBeen busy today but I’ve kept an eye on the comments. Thanks, all.
subgenius: no need to apologize. Your comment was no rant. It was a welcome addition to the kind of discussion that makes me proud of this blog.
Thanks again, everyone.
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/18 at 06:23 PMHi all and hi subgenius.
Yes, there are varying points of view on food and meat etc. Here’s mine. Not really a view, like ... my personal feelings. I too went through many years of just seeing meat as a product, I just didn’t have any clear link in my brain to living creatures who felt pain and emotions.
I love animals. Just love them. One day I thought about it for more than a passing moment and now I can’t eat most meats at all. The exception is that I’ve eaten some fish now and again. Anything that walks about and can make friends with you or is essentially harmless like a cow or sheep, just can’t do it. Feel like a murderer.
That takes me on to a tangent. It’s a kind of culture. Here’s me, making hard decisions and finding myself unable to eat a cow, for example, and yet super-liberal-saviour Obama is making choices that include bombing people in villages. Because he’s been shaped by the culture of powerful men and the things they ‘have to do’ etc.
Intelligent people struggle to live by their values. So people like Obama need to ask themselves, “what are my values?”
Because some of us ‘progressives’ have these crazy ideas like NEVER killing innocent people, for ANY reason.
The political elite believe that they are making ‘tough decisions’ for the greater good bu they are just killers in denial. The tough choice they have yet to make is to NOT destroy, to not kill and to not render people their subjects.
Posted by Andy from Shanghai on 05/19 at 11:54 AMI agree, Andy. What keeps me on the straight and narrow as a vegan is the animal ethics. If I did it solely for health, I’d likely cheat every now and then for a slice of pizza (the only animal food I miss). The number one reason I’ve been vegan for 14 years (that includes clothing, etc.) is my desire to not have anything killed or exploited in my name.
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/19 at 12:13 PMI’m with you, Mickey. Pizza’s probably the only animal food I miss as well. When I first started doing my raw diet, there was a time when I was 100% raw plus eating normal pizza on the side. Weird dichotomy. It took me quite a while to finally give it up, but thinking about animal ethics and global impact played a huge part. I still remember my last slice too: first week of August, 2007.
Posted by Charles from Jersey City on 05/19 at 12:22 PMI hear you, Charles.
Growing up in NYC, ordering pizza by the slice, folding it in half and tasting all that gooey cheese? Yeah, it’s probably in my DNA after all these years. So, I’m proud to say I haven’t eaten non-vegan pizza since, roughly, mid-summer, 1995.
It still smells good, though.
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/19 at 12:37 PMWonderful pictures! I’m so happy the event wasn’t rained out.
So I was looking through comments and had this thought: I wish “mickeyz.net” was, like, a real place. I want to go grab a coffee at Café Mickey Z.net right now! I wish I could talk about this sort of thing out in the open, all of the time. It isn’t that I can’t talk about these things because of some official police repression; it’s that most people don’t even know that the conversation exists, (because of official state/media/education omission.)
Vegans.
I’ve always been drawn to Vegans (even though I’m not one) because they almost always share my political convictions and worldview. However, I’ve never seriously considered being a Vegan myself: “Derrick Jensen eats meat, so fuck it. As long as I honor the predator/prey relationship etc…”
I’m having serious second thoughts on the subject. First of all, if I’m honest with myself, I don’t really honor the predator/prey relationship at all. Second: factory farms.
But the real turning point was this documentary I saw on Free Speech TV about the meat based diet, cancer and the cancer industry, (an industry that has no interest in curing cancer btw.) It seems that meat is killing us (and the world) and our political opponents seem to be making a killing on the killing. I think we should fight them.
By switching to a plant based diet we could cause quite a blow to the Pharmaceutical industry, Health “care” robber barons and Capitalism in general.
My writing is clumsy today. I just finished closing 7 nights in a row and am totally brain dead. I’m going to go have some wheatgrass juice and a workout so I can be BORN AGAIN. Happiness to all Expendables!
PS: nice rant subgenius.
Posted by Maxwell Black from Arlington Va on 05/19 at 01:10 PMI still think bacon smells good, even though it also repulses me at the same time.
Posted by Charles from Jersey City on 05/19 at 02:18 PMI hear that, Maxwell
Wish there was a kind of radical cafe here in Shanghai. I get close with my local friends in the music scene, but that’s just the art side of things. There’s a huge English language community here with mobility, money and education but 99% of them are more likely to discuss Ayn Rand than vegetarianism.
For me, so called ‘radical views’ are just sanity and clarity. people who take a look at the world and are ok with discussing it in a humane way.
Everyone else is just in one state or another of being poisoned by propaganda.
Posted by Andy from Shanghai on 05/19 at 03:40 PMShall we all meet tonight at Cafe Mickey Z?
Central to this whole discussion, in my mind, is how food is actually produced. If you don’t believe in animal cruelty, and eat vegetables, I would like to know where you do your shopping. The same holds true for clothing. If you’re not into animal cruelty, then that certainly means doing away with clothes made from GMO cotton or polyester. GMO cotton, even conventional cotton, has devastated the animal kingdom. Just look at the thousands of goats and sheep that have perished in India after grazing on BT cotton. I’m not telling you to put on a fur coat and rattlesnake cowboy boots, but if you’re not into animal cruelty, you have to see it in all of its manifestations.
I’d like to offer a couple of examples involving good friends who are strong, thoughtful and inspired vegetarians, who grow food commercially. Both of their operations are certified organic.
1. Despite an impressive cover cropping system, Farmer #1 has to drive an hour or more, several times a year to load his 1-ton up with cow (or other) shit from some rancher.
2. Despite seeding nitrogen-fixing clover between the rows, and green manuring like mad, Farmer #2 drives numerous times a year to pick up livestock shit from some rancher. Despite years of being ardent vegetarians, these fine friends of ours now want sheep and recognize that eventually they will have to slaughter some if they hope to have a self-supporting system.
My point is this: if you eat good, organic produce, then you undoubtedly contribute to animal cruelty. It might not be you who wields the axe (or even the farmer you’re buying from) that takes out the nitrogen-shitting chicken, but ultimately you’re a link in the chain.
I remember eating at a funky restaurant in northern Thailand over a decade ago, and there was a sign on the wall that read: “Be kind to animals by not eating them.” This really resonated with me, and still does, and it is a little heartbreaking for me to make the conclusions about sound agricultural practices that I have. Animals are SACRED, and I think we need to develop systems of production that minimize cruelty and killing as much as possible. But to eliminate it entirely, I don’t see how it is possible.
Don’t forget to remember the bone and bloodmeal behind the organic asparagus and cauliflower.
I agree: great forum this Mickey Z has going on. Any Expendables out west???
Posted by Mike from Cariboo, BC on 05/19 at 04:27 PMI’m out west, but ~1500 miles south of you. I was in Vancouver recently and once I am finished here I would love to relocate up there - if I can find a way to get a visa...I have an uncle in Smithers (who shares my experience in hunting - he now “hunts” with a camera) - which Cariboo BC are you? There seem to be 3...Vanderhoof, Quesnel & Coquitlam
captcha says “court”
http://tinyurl.com/qqto8n - Derrick Jensen must be celebrating!
Posted by subgenius from hell-A on 05/19 at 04:36 PMHi all...I like that - “Cafe Mickey Z”
Mike...A long time ago I read a report about a gardener getting “Mad Cow” disease from handling blood meal.
Thinking about vitamins and supplements for those who want to avoid animal products - I read that chondroitin is made from bovine ‘neck’ bones ???
Is today Malcolm X’s birthday ?
Anyone here following the case of Troy Davis?Posted by RMJ from Ward Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts on 05/19 at 05:04 PMYep, today’s birthdays include Malcolm X and Ho Chi Minh.
And I’m glad everyone is digging the cafe but will you please use the damn coasters?
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/19 at 08:10 PMSubgenius,
We live south of Quesnel in Williams Lake. Part of the time we are 45 minutes north of WL, on the west side of the Fraser River, where we are building a small place and growing a lot of food. Recently we’ve landed a gig caretaking a Nature Sanctuary in town, which has been a blessing. No rent, a few responsibilities, and very close to where I currently work. It keeps the expenses down, but we’re hoping to be full-time on the river ASAP. If you’re in the interior, give us a shout.RMJ: I’ve been following the Troy Davis case as well. Really disturbing how you can sentence a man to death with no evidence of any wrongdoing.
Malcolm X and Ho Chi Minh: Happy Birthday to you both.
It’s time to bring down the global feedlot.
Posted by Mike from Cariboo, BC on 05/19 at 10:33 PMMICK—et/al ........ IF MICKEY AND MICHELE can’t get the cybercafe cookin—U can always ask them to use their cyber/kitchen --- MICHAEL (not from SCOTLAND)... and I have gotten in states of uproarious fits .. in the wee EASTERN DAYLIGHT AND STANDARD NYC/ASTORIA HOURS of the am !! .. THEY REQUIRE coasters—recycling .. and dish cleaning there as well !!
unclerichiedeadhead http://myspace.com/richiedeadhead
ps .. WHEN U VISIT—TRY THE CITY VIEW FROM the fireescape .. and don’t peek at MICK’S latest novellas in progress !!
http://tinyurl.com/39avy6 come visit ALICE’S in SOHO
Posted by richie from SWAMP on 05/20 at 12:21 AM@Mike
You make valid points in your last post but you have to bring it round to anarchy and try to avoid ‘berating the victims’ in tone.
The reason that even if we make good choices we still hurt the environment in some ways, and these kinds of situations, is that we live in a certain system that makes it near impossible to live a significantly different lifestyle.
That’s why the vegetarian discourse, or the human rights discourse ... the humanitarian discourse ... ultimately must lead to the dismantling of the nation-states model that we have developed over the past 500 years.
If we kind of say ... “well, you say you are up for animals but it isn’t really doing anything in the big picture” it starts to sound like the detractors and the sneerers. We have to frame all this in the context of what that change is.
If you see what I mean.
Posted by Andy from Shanghai on 05/20 at 12:41 AMMickey-- do the Coasters want to be used? Like all the farm animals, exploitation is wrong in any case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh6rAD3Tcq4Been following the vegan-related discourse here, holding off on commenting much. Mike and subgenius make valid points, but just for now, simply… trying one’s best to be vegan just seems like the right thing to do even if the society we live in doesn’t go out of its way to make it easy for us. Yeah, my non-leather shoes are falling aprt and I’m not crazy about having to go to Payless this week and buy toxic plastic ones that were probably made by abused factory workers in China or elsewhere. But I will anyway.
Posted by James from Hell's Kitchen on 05/20 at 03:42 AMLoners unite (?)...a new post is now up.
Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 05/20 at 04:09 AMAs I continue reading the posts, over population comes to mind...and with too many people doing too many insane things simultaneously.
It’s difficult to know where food comes from, how it was grown unless you buy food locally grown.
Even locally grown, organic food can be infected by aerial spraying of toxic pesticides and whatever other toxins might be in the air, rain.
Unless you have a personal laboratory to test the ingredients of supplements, there is no certainty the supplements are what the label says.
My friend reminds me of what a difficult period of time we live in. There’s all this ‘stuff’ out there and there’s more stuff being made. People are making shifts about how they think and live while living within all this stuff and stupidity, recklessness and numerous mixed messages and inconsistencies, such as putting someone in jail for no reason and not one mention about criminals feeding off the death of other people and entire countries.
Is there something inherently screwed up about humans ? It appears to be, but I don’t think this is permanent, though it appears so, and humans, I think, can transcend the effects of all the social conditioning and it’s not easy. In fact, sometimes I think it’s like trying to dodge bullets since there is so much shit to deal with.
So what if a person becomes enlightened beyond the ordinariness of a culture, they still must live on this planet, somehow, getting along, living among it all, making decisions, finding resources...it’s still very difficult to live without reinforcing some old, negative person, group or aspect of this completely sick society.
I think all of these discussions are the material and manifestations of shifts happening. I, probably like many people are impatient as hell...,
Posted by joe of maine from on 05/20 at 04:44 AMHey Mickey,
I went to the Fall of America DVD website, but the big red button to order doesn’t work, and there’s no information on the page to make contact… reach a real live human.
The webpage itself is one big JPEG, so you can’t forward the text to anyone to encourage them to take a look at the website or seek the DVD out. It’s a little cagey, don’t you think?
There’s also no contact information that I could find on your blog, which is why I am leaving a comment. Are we all so afraid of interacting with other humans?
I don’t know about vegan, vegetarian, or omnivores! Humans need a certain level of protein to isolate amino acids, to feed their glands to produce hormones which in turn produce electromagnetic fields which we call life, which is dog eat dog, we’re all somewhere on the food chain… we’re food for the gods!
If we want to survive as a species, we should be paying just as much attention to what we put in our mouth, than what we put in our lungs, in our machines. More and more people, less and less resources… unless we figure out what some have been stressing for a long time, that there are ways to draw energy from the universe we have forgotten… secret societies have kept hidden.
The rest… is trivial. We need to rid ourselves of a billion cars… restore roads to the wild, and allow planet Earth to spawn space time… leave childish things behind.
(be careful to save your comments, an error in the field will delete everything when you hit the back button!)
Posted by Rock The Reactors from Amerika on 05/27 at 11:33 PM
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