Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Monday, October 17, 2005
Guantanamo POWs: Nothing new going on there
I beg to differ. In “War Without Mercy,” Dower employs Lindbergh as one of the rare American military critics of American treatment of Japanese POWs. Moreover, the entire point of the book is the prevalence of racism and brutality on both sides. Finally, while this example serves to illustrate the antecedents of Guantanamo, the issue here is that the US is torturing civilians. What about Nicaragua? Panama? Dominican Republic? Chile? Cambodia? Laos? Indonesia? Much more apt illustrations of this paradigm…
Posted by Donald Sanskrit on from Hiroshima, Japan 10/17 at 06:49 AMHello Donald...I think I may have missed your point, please correct me if I have.
Are you saying the the countries you list are better examples of those who commit civilian torture? Or that they should be mentioned along with the US? I agree, they should be mentioned.
Historically, countries like the DR, Chile, Indonesia and Pananma have been led by US backed dictatorships, who are armed to the teeth by the #1 arms dealer in the world, the US. Chomsky goes into serious detail on our relationship with Cambodia and Laos over the decades.
As for your comment: “In “War Without Mercy,” Dower employs Lindbergh as one of the rare American military critics of American treatment of Japanese POWs.”
I think that Mickey was making the point that even an avowed racist like Lindbergh was horrified by the way our soldiers treated the Japanese. No doubt, the Japanese were guilty of similar actions.
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 08:20 AMMorning, all. I just typed and lost a long reply...so I’ll have to try again later.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 09:12 AMGreetings, JOS. My point was that the instances I mentioned above would be more comparable examples of US-initiated torture against civilian populations in a more contemporary context. I’ve read Chomsky, and I am by no means alleging that the US wasn’t involved; that is my point precisely! Mickey’s Japan example is divorced from context entirely. I am not justifying it, and obviously find it deplorable, but in the book he cites, Dower does not dwell on civilian torture, and in fact, barely mentions it.
Posted by Donald Sanskrit on from Hiroshima, Japan 10/17 at 09:22 AMI’m trying again…
There is no shortage of documentation of “racism and brutality” by official U.S. enemies, so I tend to focus on the more typically ignored topic of U.S. racism and brutality.
As for the distinction between civilians and POWS, it’s been blurred at Gitmo and that is the context I offer.
In addition, I have written plenty about U.S.-sponsored atrocities in Latin America. For this article, I chose to compare the “good war” with the “war on terror.” In a much longer article, perhaps, I could have offered many more comparisons.
Ultimately, Dower was not the point. Just because I quoted him doesn’t mean the article has to present the same premise as his book or go any further than that quote. This article was meant to demonstrate that Bush and his administration are not unique and it would be dangerous to chalk up Gitmo as out of character during American warfare.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 09:31 AM“This article was meant to demonstrate that Bush and his administration are not unique and it would be dangerous to chalk up Gitmo as out of character during American warfare.”
In fact, especially after reading your article Mickey, the torture, rape and murder at Abu Ghraib (and NO DOUBT every other military prison in Iraq and Afghanistan) and the torture at Guantanamo do not quite compare to some of our military/government’s crimes in the past concerning POWs, which include what amounts to slave labor, starvation, and the deaths of perhaps one million POWs in US and French camps during WWII.
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 09:46 AMSave for pundits and propagandists, who is arguing that Gitmo is “out of character”?
Posted by Donald Sanskrit on from Hiroshima, Japan 10/17 at 09:57 AMis there anybody out there?
Owen, I wanted to respond to a comment you made early this morning in yesterday’s comments:
“Population explosion is a myth propagated by an elite not keen on people of other genotypes breeding. Ralph Epperson pointed out in The Unseen Hand if you split the world population (which he put at four billion at the time) into families of four and gave them each a piece of land 50’ x 53’ you´d fit everybody snug into Oregon.
Posted by Owen on from Barcelona 10/17 at 05:07 AM
Owen...sure you could fit them into Oregon, but what would you feed them?
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 10:52 AM”
A good “civilized” discussion could come forth from that...also, maybe someone would want to comment on this controversial subject:
http://wdthu.blogspot.com/2005/10/civilization-beginning-of-end.html
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 10:59 AMHi JOS & Mickey & Donald -
Fine CounterPunch article, MickeyZ! It’s new stuff for me. Not so surprising, sadly, but very new, and very interesting. Thanks.
JOS, great post at your place, too… I often think about these distinctions between cultures and the various methods of survival. My guess is that, even in today’s world, with our immense population, we need not work 40-hour weeks to keep body and soul together - and quite comfortable, as well. Just imagine how many millions of work-hours are necessary each year to keep the Feds and their passion for debt, rolling along. And, imagine how much pork we’re consistently paying for, how much corporate welfare, how much horseshit…
Then, we have to accommodate the lawyers, with their greedy & psychotic need for lawsuits of any and every sort. Some of the cost of almost everything we do and buy, goes toward dealing with phony laws and regulations and legal wranglings. Then, we’ve got state governments and all their criminal activities. Then there are the locals - just as corrupt, just as greedy, just as dangerous, in their own way. They create various preposterous zoning ordinances, construction laws, land use regulations, all of which can cost some serious cash.Add to that, the fact that most of our “needs” are actually creations of the great public relations machines - makeup, shampoos, schnazzy vehicles of any and all sorts, two thousand types of toothbrushes and toothpastes and on and on. This list barely touches the absurd and unnecessary crap belched out each day by workers all over the world.
Then, there are the ridiculous industries which, in so many expensive ways, further gobble up our money and time: The “financial services” industry, the “real-estate” industry - which includes escrow services and mortgage services and title services, the lottery and gambling industry, most of the insurance industry…
And on and on once more…
We could spend a week just listing the expensive and unnecessary elements of our society and our world. And all of it costs money -Posted by joe on from Oregon: Where We ALL Live! It's PACKED! 10/17 at 01:41 PMJOS - I just saw a picture of a big Irish dude sitting comfortably out in the woods. Thought you might be able to identify him…
Posted by joe on from Don't know, too many people here... 10/17 at 01:45 PMThat would be me, Joe...next to a creek that runs through the backyard of my family’s home in Lime Rock, CT...one of the most beautiful places in the country....except for the gosh darn race track that ruins about 5 Saturdays a year. Still, a great place.
Thanks, Joe, as usual. This is a great line and so true, “most of our “needs” are actually creations of the great public relations machines - makeup, shampoos, schnazzy vehicles of any and all sorts, two thousand types of toothbrushes and toothpastes and on and on.”
You know, I would even give up this computer without a second thought if given a choice between instant access to information and the chance to bring more places like Lime Rock, Oregon, northern Ontario or El Yunque de Puerto Rico back to the world.
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 01:58 PMEnglehardt interviews Cole:
Posted by JOS on from Isla Grande Airport 10/17 at 02:13 PMHey Joe and JOS. Your provocative exchange reminds me of something Jung said (and I paraphrase): “Most of our problems are a result of us losing touch with our instincts.”
As for over-population, it’s crucial to remember how much resources are used to keep the meat-based diet going strong: “U.S. livestock consume five times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire American population. On average, it takes 5.86 pounds of plant protein (grain and forage) to produce one pound of animal protein.”
Source: http://www.vivavegie.org/vv101/101.2005.htmWe can all make a difference through lifestyle changes. Try to move toward a plant-based diet. Don’t drive unless necessary. Consume less. Buy used items whenever possible. Bring your own bag to stores when shopping. The list goes on and on.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 02:32 PM“Alas Poor Yorick...”
Posted by lynn chadderdon on from netherland 10/17 at 03:42 PMI like that, Lynn.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 03:46 PMThanks, JOS - yup, I’d give up my computer, too - and most of the so called “perks” of life.
(Interesting interview with Juan Cole, by the way. Thanks, JOS)
We live a fairly simple life, I hope, and we’re trying to simplify. Mickey, you’ve focused on what we can do, day to day, and we’re trying. It’s insane that we’ve got huge swaths of acreage set aside for cattle, where people are starving, and stuffed into ghettos of one sort or another. The meat industry is a particularly destructive, brutal, frightening example of “unnecessary.”
Cars, too, “drive” me crazy. When we left Schenectady ( to a great extent, because I’ve always hated the area ), we didn’t have the money to move to a more urban environment. We got a pretty good deal, out here, but now we’re living in the boonies. No bus services anywhere near by. There’s lots of poverty in the area, but people cling to their cars with an almost alarming passion. People in the US see motor vehicles as a form of “freedom.” Somehow they miss the fact that they are enslaved by their car payments, insurance payments, repair bills, highway-based taxes, fuel bills and increasingly rigid inspection requirements. And, there’s always the possibility of an accident, which immediately attracts a flock of personal injury lawyers, desperate to find any reason to sue your whole life right out from under you… Yet, if enough people in this area seriously sought out public transportation, the local government would likely give it a go.
Of course, that we are a car culture is not some accident of evolution. There was once rail based transportation in a great many areas throughout the US. Such transport was targeted for destruction by the oil and automobile / bus companies, and they did their jobs very well, in most regions of the country.Posted by joe on from Oregon 10/17 at 03:58 PMJoe and others make some good points here. Where I live survival depends on having an automobile. In fact, without one I don’t even have access to drinking water. (The government will not allow some of us to connect on to the municipal water system.) I have been advocating for some public transportation that would benefit normal people but instead the government is pushing for an extension to the runway at our tiny airport. That will benefit very few, if anyone......... I would like it if I was off the electric grid but the cost of building such a house that is mostly solar costs more and many cannot afford it. It has been 55 degrees inside my house for the past few days. I don’t know what the answer is. Maybe it is time to move to Cuba.....My point is this. As individuals we are limited in what we can do. It is very frustrating.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 10/17 at 04:58 PMHi Joe and RMJ. I agree, re: car culture. That’s why I wrote “Don’t drive unless necessary.” For many, driving is necessary. But how many Americans drive (or take cabs) when walking, public transportation, or cycling is a reasonable, credible, and often easier option?
Where I live, for example, it’s sad to witness how many cars are lined up and down each block...horns honking and driving fuming. I have a bus line and 4 different subways lines within a short walk from my apartment and yet the cab business in Astoria is thriving.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 05:09 PMRosemarie - I wish I could find some useful response but I can’t think of anything. The problem with being out here in the country, is that it’s generally sparsely populated and devoid of large chunks of spare cash with which to grease the palms of “potentially helpful” politicians. No votes, no money, no voice: Who Cares? Maybe, if there’s sufficient interest within the general local population, a petition or some such public outcry might be of some help. Rural areas can be as neglected and as scorned as many inner city ghettos…
Mickey, you’re absolutely right. When I lived in NYC or Chicago or SF or Seattle, a car seemed like the height of vanity and lethargy. Most major metropolitan areas have awesome public transportation systems, available round the clock - or nearly so. In fact, having a car in a city seems stupid, as well. Accidents, side swipes, parking “whacks,” vandalism, and the like are common and costly. The cars turn the air various shades of orange or brown, and turn the whole area into a vast horn-honking, wheel whining, engine growling waste land, entirely hostile to humans on foot or bicycle… (And a cross-walk can be one of the most dangerous places in the world, even when walking only “with” the appropriate signal...)
Posted by joe on from Oregon 10/17 at 06:34 PMPS -
Off Topic… Mickey, how does one go about submitting a piece to CounterPunch? I see nothing about submissions. I wrote and asked them a week or more ago, but they didn’t write back. Perhaps I should try elsewhere, but I thought that, when I’ve finished my little essay, I could give them a try… Hey, ya never know!
Thanks -
Sven, of the NorthPosted by joe on from Oregon 10/17 at 07:37 PMI’ll send you the info ASAP, Joe.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 07:52 PMabout that video thursday where to attack next? remember that one? it is sad that those people pointed to australia as north korea because it was labelled that way on the map. but a bigger tragedy is people’s dependence on a reference guide (newspapers, maps, encyclopedias, dictionaries, etc.) for answers, when the folks who compose them may put in their own prejudices and distortions. a map with australia labelled as north korea. cartographers sometimes put hawaii and alaska at the bottom of a map of the continental united states that is a distortion.
oxford 12 ed atlas of the world refers to israeli apartheid wall as a security fence: http://tinyurl.com/a4tvk
before the attack on iraq the politicians and newspapers repeated bogus claims that iraq had weapons of mass destruction and that the attacks would bring democracy to iraq and the entire middle east. the later lie is still being promoted as with every election and bombing of cities bringing iraq one step closer to democracy.
here are just two article on webster’s third international dictionary definition of anti-semitism notice in the first article the word false in the headline is in quotation marks: http://tinyurl.com/7c7gn and http://tinyurl.com/cn6ss and robert fisk on the subject: http://tinyurl.com/cjm93
but the atlas and the dictionaries are useful because if you don’t know the definiton of say ambidexterous you would have to look it up. (that is if you wanted to know it) so how do people learn to think for themselves when the places they may have to turn to for answers contain distortions?
so does this make any sense?Posted by tm on from thinking 10/17 at 08:45 PMBrilliant post, TM. You have essentially summed up American indoctrination in a few paragraphs.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 10/17 at 08:49 PM
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