Mickey Z

Cool Observer

Thursday, December 29, 2005

My Veg News column, PETA, Tim Wise, New York Post, Nintendo, PB&J...and more?

Posted by Mickey Z on 12/29 at 08:33 AM

Man, where would you be without me? Now you’re even more obligated to come to my vegan housewarming party… is it still considered housewarming 6 month after you moved in?

Wish me luck not getting fired for watching crazy short videos here…

“press”, as in hoping your VegNews piece gets good press. But what was the obnoxious Ward Churchill comment? Was it as good as Moore’s ‘pick up a T-Bone’ line?

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/29 at 09:25 AM

‘Morning Mickey,
I often tell those that will listen that this is an ironic world and here we have a piece written by someone called Tim Wise!
What’s his angle? He sounds like a Shock Jock trying to promote himself by generating column space about himself by being inflammatory. Do you think that is what he is up to? I don’t think there was one example of context (as you mentioned) and he is playing to stereotypical bigotry by appealling to the white middleclass thing (with zero evidence) but in any case, so what!
If he were genuinely sympathetic to the cause, he wouldn’t be running the flagbearers down so viciously and would have an alternative that he would like to see. That he doesn’t present an alternative is telling in my book.

Posted by Jim on from 12/29 at 09:33 AM

u need to download these and i may have mentioned them before but they are short and hilarious(and also quite true..

part 1 - http://tinyurl.com/cms7u
part 2 - http://tinyurl.com/cd99o

think i am going to join in the sevens thing too..

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/29 at 09:34 AM

Veganism. Pooh. Bah. I might even go so far as to say, Piffle.

Hi James, how’s it hangin’ today?

Empress Amelopsis of the Utopian Imperium, from last night: Gynergy must be represented in the New Imperium, dear prospective consort. We’d have to enact laws based on unanimity, which means veganism’s right out as a legal imperative. Likewise prisonlessness, until the murder rate drops to zero. Anyone guilty of white-collar crime is put aside, supervised by those souls like Joe who believe there is worth in all people (I don’t subscribe to this belief, but am not willing to gamble that it’s not true by killing others and maltreating many more...karma’s a bugger!).

Joe, from last night: Boundless love is rare, and with it come weighty responsibilities of sharing. Welcome to the ranks of Progressive Prison Authorities! Your office is in Cell Block D, among the nastiest offenders, who need you the most. Your Kevlar riot gear is in the locker, and thanks for volunteering!

Chris, comparing me to Shrub just landed you on Eternal Privy Duty in the New Imperium. You’ll be working naked under African sun from 7am to noon, and four pm to midnight. And thanks again for volunteering!

Being in “control” hasn’t changed me, no not at all....

Hi MZs, it sounds like y’all’re rediscovering spontaneity and freedom together! I’m enviously excited for you. Being a real couple again after so much sacrifice for such a worthwhile goal...well, nothing’s too good for y’all at this point. I wish I had the means to give you a trip somewhere to enjoy.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 09:43 AM

Hey Mudge… trying to think of a joke about Karma being a bugger, in terms of prison activities… but too busy at work right now.

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/29 at 09:59 AM

mickey - about films...did u ever get to see ‘we interrupt this empire’ yet?

free download…
http://tinyurl.com/8s7g8

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/29 at 10:05 AM

James #5: Yeah, the jokes make themselves in this context.

Now GET BACK TO WORK, you need this gig!

Michael: Good heavens, you watch a lot of these short movies! I know about them from these posts alone. I’m clearly out of yet another loop.

Funny stuff, though I can’t hear anything (sound card’s gone) and so it’s hit or miss what I actually get from them.

Jim #2: “That he doesn’t present an alternative is telling in my book.” I made this point about radical restructuring of society in a long-ago post, and was infromed that simply not having an alternative to propose didn’t mean someone’s call to take down a given structure wasn’t worthwhile. The point was made by our host earlier this year, I believe...could have been last year, though.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 10:19 AM

Morning Expendables & MZ,

That Time Wise article pissed me off. I must firstly say that I’m not familiar with him; but taking your word for it, I assume that on other topics of human rights & welfare, he has some intelligent thoughts to offer. His complete lack of context for the quotes is worse than most nubie bloggers would do (me included).
His variety of journalism (or lack of it in this instance) and the attitudes it represents, are I think, the very reason that a young law student might find herself wanting to work for animals rather than people.

Ah - when I’m Empress of the Imperium I’ll have to find a good Imperial Editor.
Seriously, though, I cannot comprehend how a person who would champion the rights of humans could not at the very minimum, be more understanding of the perspective of those who believe that animals should also be entitled to a minimum standard of dignity and rights.
Even if you wished to remain a carnivore would you not concede that factory farming has created a reprehensible manner of dealing with creatures who’s very existance you’re going to turn into your sustenance?

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/29 at 10:19 AM

Mudge - under the circumstances, I guess I got off light. Shovelling shit, naked under the blazing sun ... hell, I got it easier than Shrub’s wife - she has to look constantly inspired by him! Hell, I got it FAR easier ... he chortled merrily, unaware of the burly consorts waiting to drag him off to poo detail.

Isn’t dunny duty a regular chore allocated to marines who fall below par ... nice to know military institutions aren’t shy about letting the troops know how much they’re really valued!

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/29 at 10:22 AM

As prison is still a hot topic, let’s consider alternatives - how about Jeffrey Archer? The all time biggest twat England has ever had to offer (quite a feat!) & the type of author that makes Tom Clancy read like Joseph Conrad. He did three years for various frauds, but what would be a better alternative to jail for him?

If anyone has a moment or two in which to idly ponder - & I speak especially to James, here, as nobody in your company can actually read your mind, so a while spent mulling over such things is quality “thinking v. hard about work time” - I would love to know a suggested improvement on the penal sentence in his case.

Empress of the Imperium - dead right in re animal treatment. As a personal response, if I ever need the loo in a shopping area, I always try to use a McDonalds’ toilet, especially if I need a dump. Good to give something back!

(apologies for the bad taste! But, if you’ve ever eaten McDonalds’ food, you’ll know that some things taste far worse ...)

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/29 at 10:29 AM

I felt the same way after reading Tim Wise’s piece on CounterPunch last summer. Great Veg News column, Mickey.

Posted by Mark Hand on from Arlington 12/29 at 10:41 AM

NUtI Empress Amelopsis: “Even if you wished to remain a carnivore would you not concede that factory farming has created a reprehensible manner of dealing with creatures who’s very existance you’re going to turn into your sustenance?”

A card-carrying carnivore, I couldn’t agree more. Reckless use of BGH and unneeded antibiotics has made for some scarily toxic results. Animal dignity’s gonna have to be explained to me.

Chris re: Archer, a condign punsihment for him might be to make him read and analyze first novels by people who use similar themes and characters (muffled snickers) to his...pass these analyses to NUtI (New Utopian Imperium) Empress or my NUtI self and have them reassigned to him for better, more trenchant analysis...over and over and over again, ad infinitum, ad aeternam.

I “cannot” conceive a worse punishment.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 10:42 AM

Hello Expendables. Lively start here, I see. You all make it so much harder for me to reduce the unsustainable amount of time I spend at this computer. Anyway, some replies:

James: Ward Churchill has always had a problem with activists of the vegan/AR variety. Here’s one sample of his critique: “For most people in the anarchist community who organize in their little collectives and get together and eat their bean sprouts and shit. It’s only for themselves, at the present time.” Doesn’t mean I don’t learn from the guy. Just means it’s okay to disagree (more on that tomorrow). Btw, James: How’s Frank?

Jim: In no way am I attacking Tim Wise in a holistic sense. I just thought he did himself and the AR movement an injustice with this piece and since he chose not to reply to my private questions, I thought my column (on media and veggie issues) was a good venue to air out the situation. I still view Wise as an ally but I’d just like to know where his venom for AR people comes from.

Michael: Good to have you back here on a regular basis. Thanks for the links. I will get to them later.

Mudge: Thanks for the good wishes. Michele’s being in grad school for two-plus years has facilitated my spending so much time here. Now, it’s adjustment time...and that answers your question from yesterday or the day before. Michele follows this site to a degree but she’s got lots of catching up to do before she gets here more often.

Empress Amelopsis: What a glorious title.

Chris: I agree. McDonald’s does have that one useful purpose.

Mark: Good to have stop by. How the heck are you?

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 10:45 AM

re #8 #12
I do think that animals have dignity; however I think that the word “respect” is the one I should have chosen in this instance.

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/29 at 10:47 AM

Hi all, popping in for a brief hello. Still in Ireland making some preliminary recordings for a record to harvest in Barcelona in spring. A happy holiday to all of you,
Owen

Posted by Owen on from NW coast Ireland 12/29 at 10:56 AM

Bwahahaha! Empress… Utopian Imperial pressure is too much -
making me giddy with power!

Caravaggio it’s not, I see this on black velvet.
http://tinyurl.com/ckfvl
(notice the filename when you’re there, I just HAD to post a link!)

Mickey - what do you suppose is behind this nose downward perspective of animal rights proponents? There are nuts in every mixed bag - no more or less than any other group I’d suppose; but why do you think the likes of Wise or Churchill feel superior about this topic where most others would have them champion solidarity?

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/29 at 11:00 AM

Amelopsis #14: Dignity is inherent in being alive; I was and am unclear on how it works in the context. “Respect” is far more up my limited NUtI alley, that I can wrap my mind around...a good laborer of any sort respects his materials, living or dead.

Long ago, in the Pleistocene era of my youth, I read a sci-fi short story about a paleontologist time traveler who paid horrendous sums to be transported back to the time of the dinosaurs. His aim was to demonstrate carnivorous behavior among dinos was a leading cause of extinction.

When he got to the Jurassic (hadn-wave away the issues that arise from this, like the inevitable effect of him human presence on the bacteria etc of the age, not to mention theirs on him), he heard gorgeous whistles and calls, delicately fluting out of the throats of...T. rex! He observed a T. rex kill a smaller dion, then perform a stately ritual of dance and song, joined by other dinos of differing carnivorosity, at the end of which all the dinos set to dinner. The dead dino’s kin were providing a wailing counterpoint of mourning for their loss.

The only interpretation available to him: These animals were honoring their life-sustaining kill before they co-operatively ate it. He returned to the future, a changed and irritable man.

I’ve since lost any concept of where I read this story, or the anme or the author, but I remember the story because it seemed so...out of sync...with the trends of sci-fi back then.

Does this ring a bell with anyone else in our cyber-"town"?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 11:06 AM

Oh my, Empress...you will have jaws dropping on this board all day. I officially apply for the gig of Imperial Editor.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 11:09 AM

Owen: Thanks for stopping by. Looking forward to hearing all about your adventures in Ireland.

Mudge: Are you sure that story wasn’t really a drug-induced hallucination?

Amelopsis: I have tried many times—in vain—to understand the step-child role AR activists are relegated to on the Left.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 11:12 AM

NUtI Empress #16: Oh, that image is worth a thousand words! Thought of using her as your avatar?

I think I can shed a little light on the anti-animal rights issue: I don’t support any form of legal privilege for animals. Human decency should prevent abuses of animals. Since it manifestly does not, what else does human decency’s absence threaten?

Women. Children. Different, as in “possessing inherent difference,” people (eg, me). Many people (myself among them) say, “Laws protecting different people, helpless people, or abused people are first. Enforce them, make them stick, and don’t dilute the attention of the fickle mob-jority by introducing another level of complexity.”

I make the same argument against reparations for past wrongs, really...if no one here is hungry, cold, ill or homeless, then let’s talk about redistributing wealth for some notion of fairness (with which I disagree, and will when that Utopian Impreium arrives, too).

I think it’s far more important to make kindness and fairness to people a reality than to animals. In fact, I contend the first will obviate the second...why would a kind and just person want to treat any creature with disrespect?

I have’t read the pieces in question, so I can’t make any opinion about the natuire of their “attack” but I offer the above as a countervailing POV.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 11:24 AM

Owen #15: Glad to see you however briefly, and look forward to hearing the rfuits of your Irish ferment.

MZ #19: No, not sure at all...I remember the smell of the pages, pulpy cheap paper has a wonderful pong, and the ink rubbed off on my wittle finnies, but hell I’ve had more detailed hallucinations than that from chemical alteration of perception.

NUtI Empress, shall We consider the application of MZ for Imperial Editor?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 11:29 AM

I’ve been hanging out at Cool Observer, just not saying anything; instead, I’ve been listening to and learning from the Expendables. Having briefly worked for an animal rights group about 15 years ago, I know some of the people in “the movement” can be downright abrasive. It probably comes with constantly being on the defensive in a society that is overwhelmingly supportive of human exploitation of other species. Plus, the activists view the terror inflicted by humans on non-human animals differently than most. They actually are willing to acknowledge the suffering of non-human animals, while most people just want to cover their eyes to the horror or laugh it off. It shouldn’t shock anyone that activists who choose to witness this extreme exploitation and who are trying to stop it might get kind of cranky every now and then.

But just because people might disagree on one issue doesn’t mean they should refuse to unite on issues where they agree wholeheartedly. Just because an anti-racist activist like Tim Wise talks trash about the animal rights movement doesn’t mean AR activists should ignore the extreme racism that persists in segments of our society. How humans mistreat non-human animals, how humans are irreocably damaging the environment, how humans are mistreating each other (e.g., US dominion over Iraq)—these are all issues that are inter-linked. So, once again, we might not see eye-to-eye on every issue. But that shouldn’t blind us to the many beliefs we have in common.

Posted by Mark Hand on from Arlington 12/29 at 11:30 AM

I remember reading the Wise article when it first appeared and having a good chuckle over the whole thing - he engaged in the same sort of sweeping generalizations that he is accusing the AR people of. Now, I’ve been a vegetarian since Thanksgiving of 1977, and have dabbled in veganism on and off (I just can’t lose my pizza jones, and I enjoy a nice, greasy cheese omelet 4 or 5 times a year - and before anyone starts, I know there are substitutes like soy cheese and such, but they just don’t cut it in the taste department). And while I was a bit of a militant when I first stopped eating dead animals, in these later years I just cannot get comfortable with the whole Vegan Jihad. I’m all for educating others regarding the health and eco benefits of a meatless diet, and also enlightening them about the quality of life the things on their dinner plate enjoyed prior to becoming a meal. But where PETA and many of the others lose me is in the seemingly self righteous belief that it’s okay to shame others into agreement with them - or worse, that it’s okay to disgust others into agreement with their cause. You catch more flies with honey (I know - honey’s not vegan). It just seems to be a function of human nature - and lack of emotional maturity - for people to do the opposite of what they are “pushed” towards. Any of you who have kids know exactly what I’m talking about.

So a gentle “guidance” will produce the desired effect much better than an aggresive “shove.” We can’t ignore the right of people to put in their mouth whatever they choose, and as I am sure we all have experienced in our own lives, having one of our rights infringed upon is a sure way for someone to get a fight from us. And it’s difficult to have an open mind while engaged in the adrenalin rush of battle.

Back to the article in question - while I recognized the validity in some of what Wise was writing about, he took the lazy way out by making sweeping assumptions and offering no documentation to back up his claims, other than some weak anecdotal evidence. He lost his chance to give a little “food for thought” to those in the AR movement, who can now quite happily dismiss his entire arguement by focusing completely on his more bizzare statements and claims of exclusivity of language to the racial arena. Mickey, you were correct to call him on this, and it’s a shame that he has not responded. I would be interested to read his thoughts and responses now that he’s had a chance to digest his original article and other’s responses to it.

Posted by Rev Joe on from 12/29 at 11:35 AM

MZ from a different “place”, the Garden: “Benisons” would work, no?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 11:38 AM

Just read the Tim Wise thing. Didn’t find it made much sense, really. Quite surreal in places - okay, if you look at that whole idea of equating a child with a pure blood animal then ... the what? What was he doing, watching Blade as he wrote?

I’d like to make two points:

a) what people care about & campaign for is personal to them, for whatever reason. No point in saying something is irrelevant / racist by ommission or whatever. If I give money to one charity but not another, am I implying callousness? Seems daft - there’s so many needy causes it’s impossible to help them all.

b) to judge the way he does suggests he can quantify need for, & success of, campaigning. Not possible, surely.

Besides, the analagy of animal abuse with racism is just that - a comparison. The worth of people v animals is a wholly personal judgement, & if a person campaigns for animal rights I don’t see it means they don’t care about people’s rights.

If we say people should be sorted out first, in terms of treatment, that could make sense but ... that will never happen. So the choice is either to ignore one issue people may feel very strongly about or add another plateful of concern (no pun intended) to an already bulging set of issues individuals may feel strongly about.

His list of examples is plain silly. Who hasn’t met gasbags who use their politics as an irritant? Or who want to make a big splash with some posture they suppose is polemic to the point of edgy?

And who wouldn’t rather work for animals rather than people? Shit, if I’m late for work, what’s a chicken going to do about it?

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/29 at 11:40 AM

til 2moro i will have to leave you with this picture - which i think i have to go and think about....

Posted by michael on from scotland 12/29 at 11:45 AM

Mark #22: “...the activists view the terror inflicted by humans on non-human animals differently than most. They actually are willing to acknowledge the suffering of non-human animals, while most people just want to cover their eyes to the horror or laugh it off. It shouldn’t shock anyone that activists who choose to witness this extreme exploitation and who are trying to stop it might get kind of cranky every now and then.”

So, as one who witnesses the conditions on factory farms and eats the resultant foods, I am covering my eyes or laughing off those conditions when I say that it matters far more to me that people go to sleep hungry everywhere in the world? That I believe firmly a human’s attention should be on the care and feeding of humans before any other creature? I am more horrified by the Rwandan genocide of 1994 than by a factory farm that feeds my fellow humans. I am more repulsed by the Darfur situation than by chicken processing in Arkansas.

And Rev Joe in #23 makes a great point: Guilt and criticism don’t make for converts. Veiled or not, disagreements should be based on goals, not opinions. If a PETA goal is animal rights, explain to me why that should matter more than human rights (such as freedom to decide what’s for dinner), the increase of which is my goal.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 11:56 AM

Mickey, thank you for the pointer, and I(think?) the editing of a picture from this post (damn, did I miss it?). In any case, Michael’s dog picture will have me on the floor for the next hour (with so much work to do). Now there is a dog who looks like he would rather be on sombodies plate at that moment!

As to the veg question, I would love to go there if only for consistancy in my pacifism. I have done stretches of time without meat, then only white meat etc. I will try again… soon.

Posted by Peter (the other) on from California 12/29 at 12:04 PM

Oh boy, where do I begin? First, welcome Peter. Mark, again, I’m really glad you’ve joined in. Rev. Joe...hello.

I’m hearing—loud and clear—these comments and you’ll get no argument from me that many AR folks can be gasbags, and many humans can be gasbags (thanks for that word, Chris...good choice). And I’ll confess to doing my part to alienate others over the years. My vegan jihad has often been misguided and overzealous, too. “However,” those who know me will believe me when I say it was borne of enthusiasm and sincerity...but that doesn’t lessen the annoying factor.

I do plan to talk about some of this tomorrow in sort of a year-end wrap-up post. The theme, by coincidence, echoes Mark’s words: “Just because people might disagree on one issue doesn’t mean they should refuse to unite on issues where they agree wholeheartedly.”

That, I’ll submit, is a tough lesson to learn and remember.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 12:14 PM

29 posts by 12:30, this is awesome… and distracting. Could you all please not post til around 7pm tonight? Thank you… seriously, so glad I picked up that Vegnews at Foodswings. Check them out here: http://www.foodswings.net.

And Frank’s doing fine now. I was giving him some pills but they made him nautious so the vet said it’s okay to stop them. Hurray, for now at least.

And MZ, of course kidding about obligation for my vaguely planned thing, although Frank is expecting you…

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/29 at 12:23 PM

So much to catch up with after so little time!
Mickey I think Mudge & I can agree that you should hold the post of Imperial Editor. Start date TBA.

I’m reminded of so many discussions I’ve had with people, family, coworkers, etc. regarding vegetarianism. I’m not vegan (I still enjoy cheese but I go organic soy where liquid dairy would enter otherwise)
My journey away from meat was gradual. First I cut out red meat, then eventually poultry, and then fish was cut way down. I’m not even a full vegetarian - I do on occasion still consume ocean dwellers. I have never worn fur (although I can’t be certain I didn’t have a rabbit’s foot as a kid), and when my wallet allows, I don’t buy leather.
At the time when I was still in the midst of this conversion it became a topic for discussion out of necessity ie: going to a family dinner I’d point out that I wouldn’t be eating the meat. I found a suprising reluctance on the part of those with whom I spoke. They seemed less concerned with asking why I made my choices, etc. and more concerned with finding incongruities such as having leather shoes on, or a leather belt(all of which were items going on a decade of usefulness - not new purchases). Then it turned to smoking - why should you be preoccupied with not eating meat when you still smoke?, that’s bad for you too. eesh - talk about flawed logic.
Why should personal improvement not be considered as a small step in the right direction rather than only as a pale comparison of godlike supernatural changes that cannot easily be made overnight? I could not figure it out...some effort is better than none & perfection is not a very helpful measuring point in my opinion.
I draw the conclusion that everyone’s discomfort around the topic, and my answers, stems from their own discomfort with the ideas I put forth. Maybe they’d never thought about it, and when you realise that Old McDonald’s fairy tale farm is nothing close to representative of where the supermarket meat on your plate comes from, I believe people of conscience are confronted with their own role in this assembly line.
As proof of this I present the case of an aquaintance who let me say is a very nice person, but not a very adventurous thinker; just an average representation of a good consumer. This person’s occupation was as agent for the workplace safety standards body. Upon making a second visit to an industrial meat packing plant, there was reason to visit the ‘kill-floor’. Revolted by the sights, sounds and smells of the environment this person never ate meat again from that moment on and was so disturbed as to not be able to discuss it in any sort of detail. (and the request to the employer not to return to that place was indulged)
I think everyone who buys grocery store meat should be aware of the circumstances by which their food is obtained.

Protecting people / animals - the issues are on a par, I think. Mudge and I are not far apart on this issue but I don’t see why people should defacto be given priority of aid in all cases. More often than not, the only reason animals are in need of help comes as a direct result of a human action. It’s also been proven that those who would abuse animals often move on to abuse people. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue, I don’t see one or the others (people or animals) rights to be more deserving.

How’s that for a rant? (I hope it’s readable)

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/29 at 12:49 PM

mmmrrf. Indignant, he looks.

But DAMN that’s given me another good laugh today!

Posted by Amelopsis on from Canada 12/29 at 01:07 PM

Mickey #13:

Re: the Ward Churchill anti-vegan comment.

I used to go round and round with him over my engaged nonviolence perspective (I TA’d a class on Ghandian Nonviolence for several semesters). He is, as may be imagined, totally disdainful of the idea, and would always throw a Ghandi quote at me (paraphrasing): “I am committed to the ideal of nonviolence, but if it doesn’t work, I’ll be the first one to grab a rifle and head for the mountains.”

Nothing he said disuaded me, nor did anything I said put a dent in his militancy. I still respect the hell out of the guy, and am in no way pretending that my way is absolute.

On another note, thanks “very” much for the Magnificent Seven note in your post. Between you and Skippy the Bush Kangaroo, my blog has doubled its hits overnight....

Speaking of blogs—I will add several of the Expendables’ links to my blogroll, so I can keep an eye on ‘em....

Posted by Hawk on from Boulder, CO, USA 12/29 at 02:07 PM

Amelopsis, I’m down with your discomfort rant and I think I shied away from stating it because I thought I’d sound pompous (My lifestyle is so great that others feel discomfort in its presence). However, I remember a close friend of mine once telling Michele and I: “I love how you guys live but it makes me feel guilty.” He was able to make that admission because that’s his style and he knows us both for many years. Others who feel that way might instead choose to denigrate me as a individual or veganism as a choice because once a lefty admits guilt, it implies that action should follow. Somewhere in all that might be an explanation for much of the left’s hostility toward veganism. Well, that and the fact that some vegans can be self-righteous.

Hawk, thanks for the Ward insight. Even though I have never met him, I think he and I would also disagree strongly here and there but, overall, find much common ground. What more can we ask for?

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 02:12 PM

So many links and comments, Mickey, and so little time - and I haven’t even mentioned the expendables’ links yet!
No short videos from me - sorry.
Another very hot day coming up in Daylesford, Australia: nearly 100F today, so it is not advisable to stay in the sun for too long.
Have a good morning/afternoon all of you!

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/29 at 02:32 PM

100 degrees? Helga, I was complaing about a full day of rain here...but I wouldn’t trade with you.

Speaking of the videos...did anyone watch the Nintendo and/or PB&J videos?

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 02:36 PM

And hi, Mark Hand! Long time, no hear - we used to exchange emails a while back. Hope you and yours are well.
I live here now:
http://travelvictoria.com.au/daylesford/
Happy Holidays and Happy New Year!

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/29 at 02:52 PM

And Empress Amelopsis # 31: great rant! Your mention of leather belts and shoes rang a bell - I am not a vegan but have heard people comment on these things to vegans in a clear attempt to embarrass them.
I might have said it before and here I am saying it again: you are such an intelligent lot, you MZ’ers (that includes Mickey of course ..)! As for yours truly, she falls short.

Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 12/29 at 03:06 PM

Hi Mickey, Mudge, James, Amelopsis, Hawk, MICHCAEL!, Chris, Rev. Joe, Mark, Jim, and, of course, Helga -
( Apologies to anyone I missed...):

Helga: Re -#38 - No she doesn’t! Don’t you dare ‘dis’ our dear expendable, Helga…

Mudge - thanks for the reference to last night’s post… I was responding to an old & interesting friend, and I put a lot of time into it… Yeah, I HAVE to believe in all of us. What could be a more important or more meaningful commitment?

Amelopsis - I see you read Rumi. Greatest mystical poet who ever lived… It’s cool to meet another who delights in his work.

Rev. Joe - thanks for talking about your history as a vegetarian… I feel I learned a lot by reading it.
Amelopsis - your rant was wonderful, too. Thanks.

Mickey - I’ve often wondered about how your journey toward vegan-ism began, and about the steps along the way. I’d very, very much enjoy learning more.

I don’t understand why it is that the Left attacks itself so consistently…
I recall, however, living in a van in Hawaii, for a year. The Hawaiians, the toughest, “tightest” group of folks I’ve ever encountered, REALLY dislike white people, and, indeed, most non-Hawaiians… which, of course, is understandable. During that year, I was a member of a “despised” minority, and it was interesting to see the way most Haoles ( “Howl -ees:” white people… people without breath ) often mistreated and “dis-respected” each other while living there - as if we were viewing each other through “Hawaiian” eyes. It was a whole new, and quite disconcerting experience.
Perhaps there’s some similar psychological dynamic going on among Lefties in an apparently “right” - dominated society… don’t know… I’m “merely” speculating.

Going away for the day. I sure love you guyz.

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/29 at 03:46 PM

MZ re 34 - you’re right, of course. I shy away from the wondrous iridescence of your all vegetable lifestyle. Ouch! Ooo! The blinding light! It burns, it burns!

(sorry!)

A curious point about lefties & guilt - I’d sooner people had some social conscience, in whatever form or semblance, & not beat themselves up because they still buy - well, take your pick. How many products could be politicised, some quite reasonably (eg Nestles) & others less so?

A case in point is an excellent colleague of mine, lovely man, very smart & switched on, but still happy to eat McDonalds & drink Coke.
Shurely shome phucked up reazuning thur. However, he has a real commitment to his own causes & knows his onions, as the saying goes (or maybe doesn’t).

Better to be like that, I think, than cringe because you have yet to achieve political / dietary / personal / social nirvana. Live how you are comfy & bollocks to anyone who moralises. After all, is the intention to change people’s minds? Guilt trips don’t do that. Far better to know you have a few wrinkles & still do the important shit, however it appears to you.

Of course, anybody that wants to realise the highest of ideals, best of luck to you. Just don’t blame me if, after one tofu smoothie too many, you wind up naked, miles away from home, having a psychotic incident & covered in your own ...

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/29 at 04:23 PM

Ah, Chris, there’s a book title I might use one day: one tofu smoothie too many.

Helga, you are not only intelligent, you also have an indomitable spirit.

Joe, perhaps one day we can each do a “How I became a...” essay. And let’s not forget the collective book reading idea for early 2006.

Anyway, we’re heading out soon to meet a friend at the aforementioned Foodswings. Don’t have too much fun without me.

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 04:28 PM

Do let me know how you like the place… hope you try the quesadiilla, one of my favorites.

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/29 at 04:52 PM

Mickey, be my guest.

Helga - I agree with everyone else & not you - your comments are great, so don’t do yourself down!

So ... er, you’re wrong. Sorry!

Posted by Chris Wood on from Jersey 12/29 at 04:56 PM

Chris #25: “The worth of people v animals is a wholly personal judgement, & if a person campaigns for animal rights I don’t see it means they don’t care about people’s rights...If we say people should be sorted out first, in terms of treatment, that could make sense but ... that will never happen.”

Pessimist Soul Brother!

Michael #26: WHERE DO YOU FIND THIS STUFF?!? I laughed so hard my puppies got scared!

MZ #29: Alienation comes out of much darker material than simple disagreement. I’ve disagreed with the vegan thing for years, and haven’t hesitated to say so; you are still the one who educated me to the ghastly factory farming conditions, which should stop because it’s repulsive and probably the cause of many illnesses in the workers and the consumers. My love of prime rib is unabated, your love of...what do you love, food-wise? no sarcasm, just never processed this information before, if it was ever given...whatever you love (momos!) is unchanged and we’re still friendly.

I do not need to agree on all things with my friends, and in fact prefer friends with whom I have some significant area of difference because out of conflict comes knowledge.

Empress #31: “Why should personal improvement not be considered as a small step in the right direction rather than only as a pale comparison of godlike supernatural changes that cannot easily be made overnight?” Because your effort at what you perceive to be self-improvement is perceived by them as a form of mute criticism. Same with ex-smokers around still-smoking family. Remember “Desiderata?” Go placidly amiid the noise and haste.... It really messes ‘em up when you won’t fight!

“I think everyone who buys grocery store meat should be aware of the circumstances by which their food is obtained.” I agree. Face up to it. You’re a killer by proxy. If that’s not okay with you, veggies await in their boundless bounty. Pass me the pork tenderloin, please, as you head for the vomitorium.

“Mudge and I are not far apart on this issue but I don’t see why people should defacto be given priority of aid in all cases. More often than not, the only reason animals are in need of help comes as a direct result of a human action.”
Because I’m human, I extend aid to my kind first. I have been urged to give my dogs to a shelter or even a lab, where they would certainly be killed, because I won’t be able to take them into a shelter if/when the house is sold out fro under me; my response is always a horrified and affronted “NEVER!” because it’s not their fault and they shouldn’t suffer a whit more than necessary. I behave ethically towards my puppies because that’s what ethical people do...behave ethically.

Joe #39: Leftism springs from, as MZ says, a need to DO SOMETHING! Most people are rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic and consuming their hearts out. Some shake their heads a few times and say, “Shouldn’t we get a mop...?” Among the latter number the majority of the lefties I know. Fights are common among passionate mop-wielders, largely due to the passion, I think.

Chris #40: “However, he has a real commitment to his own causes & knows his onions, as the saying goes (or maybe doesn’t).” Perhaps “as the saying wafts?”

“Better to be like that, I think, than cringe because you have yet to achieve political / dietary / personal / social nirvana. Live how you are comfy & bollocks to anyone who moralises.” The bolded phrase is the new title of my memoir.

Hi Helga! Too damn hot in Daylesford! It was 75F here and I was disgruntled.

Each of y’all is a fascinating, exciting person to get to know here. Thanks!

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 05:47 PM

RMJ, it’s getting to be a rare thing for you to be among us. I pine for some bracing drafts of truth poured from your ever-filled cup.

Keir? Still in Polska? They don’t got Internet there? Miss hearing your voice.

Big Country, you know I’m ready for you to make a triumphant return.

Empress, forgot to mention that we must come up with some investiture rigamarole to put the Z through as he assumes his position (bubble machine break) as Imperial Editor. Shall I tell him that he’s in charge of the Bukowski-burning brigade, or do you want to?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 06:05 PM

I think Tim Wise is a plant!

Posted by doffyJim on from 12/29 at 06:59 PM

Don’t know where the “doffy” came from! Perhaps it’s the Oracle’s punishment for being a smartarse!

Yep. Captcha word “cost”
Beat that!

Posted by Jim on from 12/29 at 07:02 PM

Hi, All -
Mudge, you are such a delight! I can almost see folks on the Titanic yelling: “Get a mop!” Of course, all the macho guys I know would yell: “Honey, get my shop-vac, that should do the trick...”

Hey, I’ve been wondering about that, I suppose, Native American guy, who storms in occasionally, shouts and stomps and screams, and crashes his way out again… You know, the guy who says we should all be passionately about the task of securing billions in reparations for the Indians, and then packing our bags for our “real” homes, somewhere away from ‘the continent.’ We should all drop our little weenie-cutesy conversations, and head for the door…

Is this guy for real, or is he a troll of some sort? Or, is he a for real troll?
I’ve pondered his arguments, such as they are. Certainly, we owe the Indians more than we could possibly repay. No group in North America has been so screwed -
though, I read a black guy, recently, who said:
“No matter what these other folks have gone through, at least they were never reduced to the status of being ‘property.’ At least they were always considered as some form of human being, if only ‘sub-human.’” -
Anyway - how might we consider his attacks and his anger? I don’t really know what to say, or even how to think of it?

Has anyone else thought at all about this guy?

Sorry, I was “moved” to ask…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/29 at 07:33 PM

Hi All, Sorry about my recent absences...a lot of legal stuff going on these days.
Mudge, thanks for your warm words. Even though you and I are on opposite sides of the Reparations issue, I still hang on every word that you say. As I was going to sleep last night, I thought about the many words of wisdom that were expressed here yesterday. It came to mind that with all of the talk about prison, there was almost no mention of justice… justice for the victims of crime. Justice for the homeless guy on the corner who gets beaten up, justice for the battered child, justice for the man falsely convicted and imprisoned for many years, etc.... I think that that is very interesting and says something about who we are as a group. I wonder how many of us have been the victims of crimes, violent and otherwise. One of us was mugged or assaulted not too long ago, remember? Maybe, it was Keir.
On the topic of always being in agreement...heck, there is no one that I am always in agreement with, not even myself.
Hawk, I like your WC quote.

Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 12/29 at 07:46 PM

RMJ #49: Ahhhhh. I will sleep better tonight knowing you’re a reasonably free woman and, while under a noxious and unjust cloud, healthy enough to puff at it with the LA LAW-yers.

“On the topic of always being in agreement...heck, there is no one that I am always in agreement with, not even myself.”

Exactly and precisely how an intelligent person feels, if s/he is honest.

Don’t even consider the issues on which we’re polar opposites, consider only the respect and affection you engender in all who know you, most definitely including me.

Your appeal should be decided soon...on the 8th, no? Please know that my healing meditations include, every day, an earnest request for the panel of judges to be pain-free and well-laid as they decide your appeal.

Joe #48: “Mudge, you are such a delight! “ Awww, geewhiz, yer gonna make me blush. I’ve used that image so very often I don’t even think about it any more, glad it still brings smiles; making you laugh, Joe, is a real success in my book.

As to the troll, for such I assume the person is, school’s out...probably be back here spouting annoying stuff for us to ignore or chuckle at, mood allowing, at the beginning of the semester. (MZ told us the posts usually come from a college in NJ, I remember.)

Jim #46: If he’s a plant, shouldn’t some big vegan thing eat him already?

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 08:16 PM

James. As in Langergaard.

It’s now 8:30 or so in NYC, and you’ve been home for a while having a nice bacon cheesburger and pint of bitter. And not one word here.

Hmmf. You “tax” my patience.

Posted by Mudge on from Dear, dead Austin 12/29 at 08:24 PM

I wish I were home; when it rains it pours. Hope this’ll be seen as diligence and not incompetence…

Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 12/29 at 08:49 PM

one theme of Tim Wise’s article is criticism of animal rights groups equation of animal suffering and death in factory farms to
Slavery and the Holocaust. Racists compare non-whites to animals to degrade and express a superiority over non-whites. This theme of superiority is not always white and non-white. it is the belief of humans at least in the western culture that humans are superior to animals. So people would conclude that since humans are superior to animals that means that they are smarter and able to handle complex ideas and thoughts. you are not supposed to compare the suffering of animals to any humans because humans are considered superior to animals. if someone wanted to justify enslavement, bombings, or genocide they would say that the people that they want to kill or enslave are less superior than themselves. So people see the easiest way to do this is to compare the other group to animals (sub-humans) such as monkeys, apes, cockroaches, etc. Numerous cartoon images of black people throughout history compared them to monkeys, Anti-Japanese cartoons during world war two compared them to apes and other animals. Hutu propaganda compared Tutsis to cockroaches.

Sometimes people do not use animal analogies to degrade other humans. You sometimes see a news clip of a parliament meeting in a Southeast Asian country break out in a brawl that could be the only theme you may see on the news about the Southeast Asian country or Southeast Asia overall. this could lead some people to believe that this country is uncivilized. Or the absence of Israeli murder of Palestinians and the bulldozing of their homes but every suicide bombing is written with great detail someone can draw from this that Palestinans do not value life their only goal is to murder the peaceful Israelis. So take one idea and run with it repeat it over and over on the t.v. and the papers. this is another way of justifying mass murder. can also be used to a justify takeover of a country’s resources because westerners are better at managing them than they are.

Racism and the Animal Rights movement: http://tinyurl.com/d89s9

Human Slavery in America’s Slaughterhouses: http://tinyurl.com/dwjv4

Posted by tm on from in a grove 12/29 at 10:07 PM

Hello everyone. Great to see so many familiar faces today and tonight.

Joe, the guy/gal “you’re” talking about is, as Mudge surmises, likely to return when school is back in session. I promise to share what I know about him/her when I’m not nodding off (like now).

Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 12/29 at 10:19 PM

Hi Humans -
I’m tired, too, Mickey. Weird evening.
I’m grafeful for the responses, Mickey and Mr. Mudge. And,
it’s wonderful to see you, Rosemarie.
Maybe we can gab about justice sometime soon… I’m not sure what you mean, and I don’t want to blab on without knowing…
I owe you a letter, eh? Soon.

TM - I’m enjoying that “Satya” link. As usual, you’re the King of the links, my friend. Great post, as well…

Thanks to you all for being here…

Posted by joe on from Oregon 12/29 at 11:31 PM

Hi Ya, Joe.
I think justice comes into the scene when legislation is being introduced/debated because laws are restrictions on peoples behaviour so can only be justified (no pun intended) through increasing justice in the community. Of course, the justice may be just rhetoric concealing other motives (which by definition have to be unjust!).
Either way, once the legislation is law, though, justice doesn’t get a look in. The arguement is now about legality. The “spirit” of the law is overridden by the “letter” of the law.

My cynical view is that going to court expecting justice is like having sex and expecting to get love. It happens sometimes but .........

Posted by Jim on from 12/29 at 11:47 PM