Mickey Z
Cool Observer
Thursday, August 03, 2006
Yeah, it's the whole violence vs. non-violence thing again
Hey, my problem/confusion with Derrick Jensens’ saying that he wants to “do whatever it takes” is the same with my problem with Ward Churchill-- specifics. One the one hand, neither wants to get arrested for inciting riots or any other violence, I mean that wouldn’t help any movement out there. But on the other hand, what “whatever it takes” has he done lately, besides writing books? Which is still a lot, don’t get me wrong, and hey, maybe the dude’s been taking part in some violent activism I’m not aware of. I’m just saying that these guys risk coming off as being “all talk” and relegated to charicature.
But bear in mind that my idea of good news is that I’m scheduled to start a job as a proofreader on Monday with a little bank called Morgan Stanley. And Ward had a name for people like me, right? Cleaning staff, proofeaders… whatever. So I’m not sure what I’m saying, I guess.
Anyway, 84 now, but it’s still an emergency:
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=61490
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 06:23 AMOh god I spelled ‘proofreaders’ incorrectly up there. I’m doomed.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 06:25 AMGood mornin’ Mickey and James…
James, hummmm working for Morgan Stanley. Don’t feel too bad, we all are contributing to the war machine. It has been a family discussion with my daughter for years (how to avoid working in a job that contributes to the harm). Unless you can be an organic farmer, there are not many options.
“...We could say that Gandhi had a nonviolent revolution. I would say, well that’s nice but actually the Indians lost and Monsanto won....” Great quote. Anyone who supports the war economy is contributing to the violence, Monsanto, Dow Chemical....
Sort of off topic, but not really. A couple of days ago, Oprah did a program about the minimum wage. Wow, she really finally did a program that dealt with something more important than how to apply eye shadow. She was quoted on the floor of Congress. People are now saying that it is “the Oprah effect” that led to the Congressional discussion about the minimum wage. A couple of important points here, first Oprah was NOT the first to bring this issue to light. Many others, including, Barbara Erenright, have done much more. The moral of the story is that maybe those in Congress should read more books and watch less television. There also is another moral here and that is that if we want to get OUR message out, we are going to have to find an Oprah-like personality. That is a sad situation but it is the reality of the way things are. (Forgot to say that Oprah actually seemed surprised about the hardships of minimum wage workers even though she claims to have had some deprivation in her life.) Can you imagine a conversation between Jensen and Oprah, or Mickey and Oprah, or Bill Blum and Oprah.
In case you missed it...the bill in Congress about the minimum wage had a poison pill inserted. The “system” should be changed so that that can’t happen but........
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 07:09 AMHall talks of militancy and going to war as tactics (and rhetorical devices) to avoid. But in the quote there is no mention of how to defend oneself. Defense is something that Jensen (and Churchill) are very much concerned with.
To the extent that I am familiar with Jensen’s outlook, I have to side with him; his principled stand against systemic violence and destruction leads him to find principled grounds on which to resist.
By contrast, the Hall excerpt seems to equate resistance with aggression. If that were the case, all resistance would somehow be morally wrong. I agree with Hall that WWII was certainly anything but “just”; however, pitting Hall’s comments against Jensen’s makes Hall seem to reject something like the Warsaw Uprising (or the one in Palestine) as naked aggression.
Of course it’s unfair to distill an entire view from a single brief excerpt of an interview. Give us more---this is important stuff.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 07:19 AMJust want to add that I realize that many Expendables are non-TV people. I certainly understand why. But there was a time when our views were represented on MSM. That was when Phil Donahue was on. For a time he also did another program with Vladimir Posner. I point this out only because I believe that it is in the realm of possibility that we again have some limited access to the mainstream. That could make a difference.
Democracy Now is reporting that cluster bombs are being used against Lebanon. Anyone know where the cluster bombs are manufactured?
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 07:22 AMI wonder if there’s corporation that I wouldn’t work for in order to pay my rent and meet expenses and stay off of credit cards. Probably not, though I’d like to think I’d draw the line at Philip Morris. Then again, it’s not like I’m getting rich here, or even receiving medical benefits or anything like that. I still wish I came into contact with more activists, or at least activist-minded people, who have to work the kinds of jobs that I do, but then again, I just wish that I came into contact with more activists in general.
Really should leave the computer more often… I mean, I guess I feel a lot lately like leaving playing on comments boards really isn’t what Ward and Derrick mean by ‘whatever it takes.’ But then, I still don’t know what they meant. Maybe something we’d get in trouble for if we mentioned here.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 07:23 AMFirst off, I will admit that I have never read Lee Hall aside from the interview that Mickey provided. And I won’t be reading anything further.
Lee Hall is full of crap.
Hall says: “...bringing that into the discussion of terrorism, we should note that arson and bombs have never been about harmony with nature.”
OK. Sooo...blowing up a dam with a bomb to restore the natural flow of a river is a “terrorism.” What if the dam was brought down by an Earthquake? Is that terrorism?
Hall’s argument about identifying “Them” as “...outside our moral community” is just plain silly. I consider myself a better person than the CEO of Monsanto. End of story. What would Hall suggest the Palestinians do while Israel blows up neighborhoods? Sing KUMBAYA and send the IDF positive thoughts? Is that realisitc?
And finally, if Hall wants to talk about “harmony with nature.” He should talk to mother grizzly bears that use violence to protect their cubs. Or animals in the zoo that maul the zookeepers.
Haven’t these animals read Hall’s seminal work?
Maybe Hall should write an article advising the people of Lebanon to eat more green leafy vegetables this week. The closer the bombs come to your house, the more vegan dishes you should eat. Israel will spare the vegans.
I believe that if animals had the capability to set fires and make bombs, we would see a new found militant version of Noah’s Ark.
As Jensen notes often: those that resisted in the Warsaw Uprising had a higher rate of survival than those who went along with the status quo.
Posted by Kap Fulton on from San Diego, CA 08/03 at 07:25 AMGood morning, Keir. We were symultyping. I agree with what you say. My position is that resistance is the opposite of aggression because it is intended to stop aggression. Failure to resist gives aid and comfort to the aggressor.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 07:26 AMSimultyping RMJ. On Oprah: it just won’t do to have billionaires (?) advocating for the poor. Sorry Oprah. Congress picking up on the immiseration of their constituents only after an entertainer with much money starts talking...well, that reflects how empty the Congress is. I don’t think we need an Oprah-like personality to get our message out; that’s like a dog chasing its tail.
Not that it’ll ever happen, but the only way to get gov’t to advocate for the people (rather than for the profit) is to make it of the people. The US constitution is so flawed it’s ridiculous, but it’s reached biblical status I’m afraid. Every US citizen or permanent resident should have a manditory year of political service, from village trustee to president---not elected (chosen randomly), paid minimum wage. Watch checks and balances start to work, minimum wage skyrocket, social services to get real good and efficient, war profiteering to disappear and contracts for Halliburtons to dry up like that. Captcha=high, as in time.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 07:29 AMRMJ, check this out.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 07:35 AMKeir...I agree that we need a government of, for, and by the people. For a long time I have been saying that the president (and Supreme Court judges etc.) should be selected at random. That way we would have plumbers, factory workers, farmers, etc representing us. I also have been saying that we need a maximum wage....sort of the Ben and Jerry’s principle that no one should be paid more than 6 times the minimum wage. I also have been saying that our rulers should be paid the minimum wage and that their assets should given up before they take office.
I disagree with only one of your points and that is that the poor don’t need a high profile advocate. Until we have a person of high profile with MSM access, we will just be talking to each other.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 07:44 AMI’m feeling impatient and frustrated in general; I should at least go out for a walk or something. But does anyone know what Jensen’s actually talking about? Do I understand correctly that he’s advocating doing stuff that would get us put in jail if we were caught being involved with it? Stuff he’s not actually doing himself, or did he his book from jail? Again, I’m sure there’s plenty I don’t know about these people beyond excerpts… and I’m just so bored with my life here too.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 07:49 AMGood morning Keir, James, RMJ, Kap,
Mickey I agree with Keir...give us more.
I find this very personally conflicting, as I think do many of the Expendables. I think I prefer to read some more of it over again before I have much to say.
more to read…
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 07:59 AMHi Mickey,
from t´other day, regular for Barcelona this time of year is 95-100 - August is the month in which nobody does anything in this country and all the Catalans flee the city leaving it to the furreners.Posted by owen on from barcelona 08/03 at 08:02 AMHellos and howlows from the bordered area that’s often referred to as Tejas.
God luck poofeading, Kat Lady…
@ MZ: Pacifism is mere utopia in the face of a violent ruling class, which renders violence inevitable. Else be slaughtered.
@ ALL: Goes without comment that wars of greed and conquest go on while the class war continues. Dialectically speaking, each are parts of the same struggle. That being said, the phrase “whatever it takes...” should have collective connotations appended.
captcha = have (or is that “have nots”?)
Posted by RT on from The Buyou City 08/03 at 08:32 AMRT, I think you forgot the ‘e’ in ladey…
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 08:48 AMRMJ I’m willing to accept the point that the poor need high profile advocates. That doesn’t necessarily mean they should be filthy rich.
James (#12) asked: Do I understand correctly that [Jensen]’s advocating doing stuff that would get us put in jail if we were caught being involved with it? Jensen’s advocating doing stuff because we caught people doing stuff that they should be put in jail for. Get it? Is the fear of time in jail the thing that keeps people from doing good?
Sort of related, I got a quote out of the book I’m reading now (Society Under Siege by Zygmunt Bauman) to add to the mix today:
Speaking in terms of costs and effects (the sole way of speaking that ‘makes economic sense’), no other form of social control is more efficient than the spectre of insecurity hovering over the heads of the controlled.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 08:50 AMSorry Keir, but no I don’t get what he’s encouraging us to do. What is it? I don’t know, maybe I need to find more of his stuff to read if it’s specifics that I’m craving for some reason.
I still find, I think it was Luna’s, quote the most meaningful, from a few days ago. That unless all these activists can surround the White House and tell the President and Cabinet that they can’t guarantee their safety unless they surrender, then this is all just fun talk. Something like that.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 09:07 AMGood Lord there are a lot of comments here this morning…
Anyone want to suggest a question for Larry King to ask Condaleeza Rice tonight? Don’t forget to indicate whether your question is positive or negative!:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?12
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 09:18 AMI am leaning towards Jensen’s point of view here in my seemingly neverending seesaw argument within my head concerning non-violent vs. violent action.
I think one of the most amazingly horrible facts mentioned in his quote is that 9 out every 10 big fish have been removed from the oceans.
I think action, non-violent or violent, can only be judged on effectiveness. If you set fire to some logging trucks, get arrested, turn the whole community against you and new truck show up the next day...what was the point?
I think it will take large numbers of people willing to fight...in a coordinated fashion.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 09:28 AMMorning JOS,
My question would be fairly benign:
“How do you sleep nights?” I’m sure Larry would end up asking her whether she prefers a nightgown or pyjamas though.
In the first days he had Nasrallah on the phone and actually asked him if he wasn’t on camera because he was afraid to show his face! It didn’t dawn on him (apparently) that it might be difficult to reach full studio while in the midst of an Israeli air assault.(I suspect that condi sees no reflection in mirrors and likely has no need for sleep; probably drinks blood and sleeps in a box in a safe room.)
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 09:32 AMBut wasn’t it nice to see her playing the piano while she was on her Middle East “peace” mission?I mean that makes up for a lot (dripping with sarcasm).
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 09:45 AMHey JOS, I’m trying to be productive here, but I’m not sure whether “Why don’t you go out and play hide and go #### yourself?” is a positive or negative question for Madame Sickretary.
James and all Expendables: want specifics? Whaddya’ll think of this type of action? Pertains directly to the main post.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 10:27 AMOh boy, I just got off the sauna, I mean, subway...and look what we have here. First, let me welcome Kap. It’s been a looooong time, but I still you’ve lost none of your fire.
CatLady: You are so caught up in the specifics when you clearly know talking about such things can land one in an orange jumpsuit. I strongly suggest you—and everyone—read Jensen’s Endgame. Lots and lots of specifics in that two-volume set.
As for Lee Hall, I was not in agreement with much in her book, but I’m afraid I unintentionally set her up for the fall here...and that’s not fair. (I did say I could not do any viewpoint justice in a blog post.) Let me scout around and try to find more of her stuff to share. She was once a semi-regular on this comment board. Perhaps she still lurks and will join in since I may have done a poor job representing her viewpoint.
More “soon” (as captcha sez)
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 08/03 at 10:43 AMPloughshare’s actions seem quite commendable to me, and thankfully the Irish courts acted sensibly: http://tinyurl.com/jhrnn
Thanks for the original link, Keir.
Why does it somehow seem easier to motivate people to this sort of action when in the context of smaller societies?
Is that my personal or a shared perception?
Is this perhaps spurred on by Irelands history of social uprising?(I have more questions than answers with regard to today’s topic)
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 10:45 AMKeir...you never know, Larry might be a fan of playing hide and go #### yourself.
Ploughshare’s go and disable a warplane and then are acquitted...only in Ireland.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 11:01 AMYeah, Keir, that is more like it, and I know Mickey, I guess I’m not really expecting Derrick or Ward or anyone to be stupid enough to get themselves pointlessly arrested. Maybe I feel a little dismal about the irony of sitting in in front of a computer all morning attempting to comment on how much violent action I think is necessary or feasible now. Isn’t the idea of a two-volume book about violent direct action ironic as well? Talk talk talk, I mean… so when on the DJ site it doesn’t list any of this sort of action he’s been involved with, it’s not because he’s a hypocrite, he just wants to stay out of jail, right?
Okay, gonna go out for some iced coffee, or the gym or something. The heat’s getting to me, that’s all. You know what they say about Vikings, right, that they get Seasonal Affective Disorder in June, not January, and if we’re not careful, it can last for twenty years.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 11:26 AMJames, I hear you. The only times I’ve ever been arrested were for drunk and disorderly, not trying to save the world. Though one time, long ago, my cousin called a bunch of cops Nazi pigs...it was all fun and games until the night sticks came out.
By the way...yesterday’s high temp in Chicago: 101.
Today: 82
I love these 20 degree swings.
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 11:53 AMMaybe the tilt of the Earth has changed…
http://tinyurl.com/qp8zxJames, you keep asking the important question that no one can answer. What can be done to change things. I think that maybe the answer to that question is, “Nothing, it is too late. Actions should have been taken a long time ago.” Our numbers are too small. We have too little money. We have no weapons. Many of us don’t believe in any form of violence. We fantasize about making citizens arrests of the oppressors but even that would not be effective. After the arrests, then what? A trial in a usa court. That would be a joke. Maybe we can hope that there will be “encirclement” from all of the other nations. As it stands now, it is the usa, great britian, and israel against the whole world. When Venezuala, Cuba, Iran, China and the rest combine to offer an opposing force, maybe that will bring change, but maybe not. It is hopeless. I think we’re screwed.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 01:05 PMRosemarie I’ve been trying to put off admitting it, but I think we’re screwed too.
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 01:19 PMKeir # 23...That action is great and it reminded me that today is Martin Sheen’s birthday so everyone has a reason to “party” it up tonight in honor of a fellow protester.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 01:26 PMAmelopsis # 30...I think that anyone who gave it a moment’s serious thought would agree with us. Even our bodies have been taken over by the corporations. Think of all of the scientific studies that have shown that our bodies contain everything from pesticides to PCB’s. When those results are in the news, there is not even a reaction. It’s like, oh well, there’s fire retardants in breast milk, OK, what else is new.
I have not completely read all of Jensen’s work. Maybe he has a solution. But I sort of think that we are playing mental gymnastics when we write, argue, debate, and strategize. We do it because it hurts less than the alternative. The alternative being, just giving up and admitting that we have lost.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 01:41 PMSorry to be out of the loop today, folks. Lots going on (details in Saturday’s story). For now, I will third the “we are screwed” motion. My new credo:
There are no happy endings.
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 08/03 at 02:01 PMA post to make one think, Mickey!
‘Hi’ to James, Rosemarie, Keir, Kap Fulton, Amelopsis, Owen, RT and JOS. You all comment so intelligently that there is no need for Helga to chime in - not today anyway.
Oh, and happy birthday, Martin Sheen!
Ciao expendables ..
Posted by Helga Fremlin on from Daylesford, Australia 08/03 at 02:28 PMMickey I hope your new credo isn’t an indication of the tone of your day.
As for being screwed, for me not giving up hope entirely is all about keeping my mental faculties intact.
Knowledge is power. Not arms, not effective material change, but power nonetheless.
(KatLadey should that or those be 3 individual words? Sometimes these things get foggy for me)To live a life of blissful ignorance simply isn’t fulfilling or fruitful.
Fire retardent in breastmilk? Is that now a prerequisite for volunteer firefighters?
And for the non-vegans among us who might like to think of reducing the fat in your ice-cream, think again as there’s deep sea coldwater Eel antifreeze in there, labelled as ‘texturising’ something or other and has been known to cause massive immunological problems. Just so ya know.
Also, major brand soft drinks in India apparently contain very high qty’s of pesticides. (maybe it’s monsanto pop)Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 02:36 PMSimultyping - Hello Princess Helga!
Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 02:37 PMWith respect to those who use NO animal products, I remember the good old days when a child could drink a glass of non-toxic milk. Here is one thing on Nader’s list of toxic products........
Whole Milk - (eg. Borden or Lucerne)
Unlabeled Toxic Ingredients
DDT, Carcinogenic; xenoestrogen.
DIELDRIN, Carcinogenic; xenoestrogen.
HEPTACHLOR, Carcinogenic; neurotoxic; reproductive toxin; xenoestrogen.
HEXACHLOROBENZENE, Carcinogenic; neurotoxic; reproductive toxin.
ANTIBIOTICS: Some are carcinogenic, cause allergies and drug resistance.
RECOMBINANT BOVINE GROWTH HORMONE and IGF-1: Also, risk factor for breast, colon and prostate cancers.Safer Alternative:
rBGH-free Organic skim milk
(If I am remembering correctly, the most expensive lobbying campaign in the history of Vermont was run by Monsanto. They objected to the correct labeling of milk so that the consumer could make an informed choice about the BGH.)
Even Mickey says there are no happy endings. WE HAVE ALREADY LOST.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 03:17 PMMap of Israeli strikes on Lebanon:
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 03:41 PMHi JOS...I can’t see the map but I will check it out on the internet. Things are going for bad to worse.
Canadian milk better than usa milk.
“Genetically-engineered bovine growth hormone (rBGH) in milk increases cancer risks. American dairy milk (and cheese) is genetically-modified unless it’s labeled “NO rBGH.’ “ European nations and Canada ban rBGH in order to protect their citizens from potential cancer hazards.” The USA does NOT ban this carcinogen.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 03:47 PMBetter yet, and better FOR you...soy milk. (we like ‘silk’, non gmo and is organic)
Seriously - (I have a thing for cheese, so call me hypocritical) milk is gross! Aside from the obvious things that you list, RMJ, there’s all sorts of things in there that just don’t belong...yuck!And as for children and milk...advice for parents who’s young kids suffer persistent ear infections is to cut out dairy and voila!
JOS, I can’t see that map either but I hear they’re attacking Beirut’s suburbs today and that retaliatory strikes against Tel Aviv are threatened.
A very big and fast downward spiral.Posted by Amelopsis on from Canadia 08/03 at 04:21 PMIt’s a pretty well done map...try looking at the latest post on my blog:
http://www.wdthu.blogspot.com/
Posted by JOS on from Chicago 08/03 at 04:37 PMOh man… this was an argument that I didn’t reeeeally want to win.
But about veganism:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51139
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 05:30 PM(jokingly) James, you also spelled caricature wrong and used the phrase One the one hand,. http://www.spellingsociety.org/
(serious) Congratulations on your new job!Jensen and Hall both make interesting points, but from the interviews Jensen seems more balanced in his views of violence versus non-violence. To him violence/non-violence is not an either/or solution. Perhaps their views stem from their backgrounds, but I don’t know anything about Hall’s background to be completely sure.
What does Jensen mean by bringing down civilization? I don’t know how to scavenge for berries. If his plan comes into fruition, I’m doomed!
IRAN UNLEASHES QAEDA HEIR TO AID HEZ that Al-Qaeda #2 is like a Phoenix
http://tinyurl.com/p9stzRelated to the theme of either/or, here is a scene from one of my favorite films Le Corbeau http://imdb.com/title/tt0035753/ with minimum stage directions. (on my part)
The scene takes place in a classroom, recently used as a sort of interrogation room. Dr. Vorzet is a psychiatrist and Dr. Germain is a gynecologist, he is the target of a poison pen campaign.
Dr. Germain: Think it’s her?
Dr. Vorzet: While you were upstairs, I had another look at her handwriting. There are similarities, but nothing conclusive.
Dr. G: And her passing out?
Dr. V: That doesn’t amount to proof. Be honest with me. Do you love Denise?
Dr. G: I don’t think so. I desired her, and I still do on certain nights, when I toss and turn. But if she were guilty, I’d turn her in.
Dr. V: The conflict of love and duty! (walking to the teacher’s desk) You’re like a French tragic hero, minus the beard. But you virtually have a beard. That’s even handsomer.
Dr. G: But still, when you see an evil creature-
Dr. V: I see one every morning in my mirror, alongside an angel. You’re amazing you think people are all good or all bad. (reaches for the ceiling lamp) That Good is light. (bringing the ceiling lamp down) and Evil is dark. (gives the ceiling lamp a gentle push) But where does evil end? Are you on the good side or bad side?
Dr. G: (walking over to Dr. V) What rhetoric! You just stop the lamp.
Dr. V: Then stop it.
Dr. G grabs the lightbulb but immediately takes his hand away. The light swings between them.
Dr. V: you burned yourself. You see, the experiment proves it. I’m fond of you. I’ll let you in on a secret. I take drugs. I shoot up. It was for me that Marie Corbin spirited away morphine form the pharmacy. Out of love for her ex-fiance. But I don’t consider myself a monster. Ponder that, young man, and examine your conscience. The results may suprise you.
Dr. G: I know myself.
(at some point Dr. V walks away from Dr. G)
Dr. V: You proud man! Since this tempest of hate and calumny hit our town, all moral values have been corrupted. You’re infected like the others. You’ll meet your downfall. I’m not saying you’ll strangle your mistress, but you’ll rifle my papers if I leave them here, and you’ll sleep with with Rolande if she loves you. The choice is yours.
Dr. G: Right you do treat lunatics.
Dr. V: At your service (opens the door and walks outside the classroom) Sleep well, all the same. (Dr. V leaves)
Finally, the idea that it is hopeless, maybe that’s a Western trait. The Palestinians and the Lebanese continue to resist Israeli aggression, they obviously face greater dangers than we do in the West. I’m sure the following scenes take place quite often at checkpoints. http://tinyurl.com/rl9xk
Posted by TM on from 08/03 at 06:08 PMHi TM. For some reason, I really laughed at this line: “You’re like a French tragic hero, minus the beard.”
As for Jensen, many of us are doomed if his plan comes to fruition. Then again, many of us are doomed if it doesn’t.
Captcha sez: “Meet” (as in..."the real boss/same as the old boss")
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 08/03 at 06:11 PMJOS...you have a great site. Why was I never there before? I have already forwarded the previous post from there to my friends who think that the troops should have parades, honor, and glory. And the map showing the strikes is a good one.
Amelopsis...I don’t like milk either but I think that non-toxic milk would be a good choice to have. I do like strawberry milk shakes but don’t tell Mickey. About childhood ear infections, I think that babies who are fed human breast milk are almost immune to those and many other infections.
James...I think that much of the meat in the usa is unsafe.
my captcha word is “zipper”
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 06:25 PMGood afternoon M & Ex, (click, on flame)
Oh shit...., someone should do something “violent” to this Jensen fellow, so he will sit down and shut up with all his “I thinks” and “I wants”. He is not half full of it, and I would suggest that the fellow he mentions, who said:
“I have a friend who is an ex-con who says that dogmatic pacifists are the most selfish people he knows because they put their own spiritual purity over effectiveness.”
is still a con.
What do any human know of effectiveness. Look at the wind and rain wearing down the mountains, that is effective. To be concerned with eficacy is to know patience. We are smaller then fleas on the back of this gracious space object. There is nothing to say that everything that is happening is not as it should be. But one thing I know, it is none of anybodies business how anyone else chooses to take the trip. We are free to do it as we will, without judgement from blowhards like Jensen and his “ex"-con. There are millions of years behind us, so one liitle jerk of a genetic infant, thinks he knows how it should be, and we got millions of years to go, I say “fugetibout it”.
He doesn’t want a revolution, he just wants some admirers. I believe the next revolution will be one of a million individual acts, done over hundreds of years. Imagine that, no heros to wave flags as admirers sit at their feet, because it all happens in longer then a human time frame (mankinds biggest frailty, only thinking in times smaller then a human’s).
Oh… oh… and it ain’t even hot here!
captcha = pool (everybody in)
Posted by Peter (the other) on from California 08/03 at 06:28 PMTM...thanks for that link. The photographs of the children are really something. Maybe it’s photographs like those that continue to inspire us to keep up the fight.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 06:37 PMI’m sorry Peter but I like that statement (with a subtle change)...Pacifists are selfish because they put their own spiritual purity over empathy for another’s suffering.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 06:46 PMPeter, if you haven’t already, I suggest you give Jensen a bit more time before coming to the conclusion that he’s a “blowhard” seeking admirers over revolution. I believe he is quite sincere. I named an album I recorded after one of his books, and my brief personal contact with him at that time affirms this belief.
Unfortunately I don’t think “the next revolution will be one of a million individual acts, done over hundreds of years.” I think it will be quite similar to the small revolutions that occurred in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg and so forth 61 years ago. We all of us will be caught on the wrong end of it.
Still, I disagree with Rosemarie and Amelopsis and Mickey about being screwed. Too passive. We’re screwing. Amphibians and orangutans are being screwed.
Posted by Keir on from The Hague 08/03 at 06:59 PMScrewed and screwing, Keir. And yes, Peter, please read Endgame (both volumes).
Posted by Mickey Z. on from Astoria 08/03 at 07:07 PMKeir...good point that you make. We are the screwers and the screwees.
Posted by RMJ on from Churchill 4 Prez Hdqts 08/03 at 07:08 PMWhere in the name of god is… oh never mind.
Posted by James on from Hell's Kitchen 08/03 at 08:07 PM...yikes! bourgeoise talkin’ trash again!? To All (me included): i) there is no neutrality in the belly of the beast. Hall pays taxes and obeys the traffic laws (two of the most important attributes of ‘citizens’),so his hands are red just like ours. his ‘morality’ is null, as he doesn’t take responsibility for what he enables. we are not ‘innocent’ and the sooner we get understand that, the sooner we might be able to fashion a praxis that will disintegrate the shit-pile called amerika.
Posted by zek on from 08/04 at 12:44 PM“He doesn’t want a revolution, he just wants some admirers. “
THis is right on the money.
btw you dont need to read endgame to get his jist-just read a language or make-believe and you will get the picture of where he is coming from
Better yet watch the fur fly on his discussion group.
Posted by zooey on from NY 09/03 at 06:45 PM
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